Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

Started by Danny, April 07, 2007, 09:29:23 AM

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Nick

I have the same recording you have from Jarvi. Oh, boy, I just love those Four Portraits from The Gambler, Op.49! That stuff is fantastic, and it's as good as music gets.

I found that I had to approach The Gambler, Op.24 the way I approach serial music. It's the least "accessible" piece of music from Prokofiev; it's really thorny. I'd given it to a Professor at Vassar who tried it out and said, "That doesn't need to be an opera!" But it was just one listen.

They really seemed to like it when it went up about a year ago last April at the Met. It's wild, sarcastic, dry, and as modern as anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/arts/music/29gamb.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=The%20Gambler&st=cse

karlhenning

Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on June 12, 2009, 08:59:35 AM
They really seemed to like it when it went up about a year ago last April at the Met. It's wild, sarcastic, dry, and as modern as anything.

Hm. Comparisons are odorous, of course . . . but it sounds like a cousin to Shostakovich's The Nose.

bhodges

Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on June 12, 2009, 08:59:35 AM
They really seemed to like it when it went up about a year ago last April at the Met. It's wild, sarcastic, dry, and as modern as anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/arts/music/29gamb.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=The%20Gambler&st=cse

I saw The Gambler both last year, and in its premiere (twice) a few years before that, and yes, "wild, sarcastic, dry and modern" would all apply.  (Haven't yet purchased a recording yet to listen to it extensively, although I'd like to.)  My impression is that those looking for the "Prokofiev long line" (e.g., the opening movement of the Fifth Symphony or portions of Romeo and Juliet) will be a little startled.  Here he uses smaller cells--gestures that appear and vanish just as quickly--which gives the the score a nervous, slightly comical quality.  The music definitely grew on me with each additional hearing.

--Bruce

Nick

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 09:30:19 AMHm. Comparisons are odorous, of course . . . but it sounds like a cousin to Shostakovich's The Nose.

I went to a pre-concert lecture before a Prokofiev performance when Harlow Robinson (your fav) was talking about Prokofiev's influence (my fav topic) on other composers. He said that he thought Love for Three Oranges had an influence on The Nose, but I'd be the first to say that this doesn't mean anything about originality, quality, or invention.

Taruskin (my real fav) loves this piece, but even he can't stop me from liking it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/18/arts/music-prokofiev-and-the-might-have-beens.html

Nick

Quote from: bhodges on June 12, 2009, 09:39:41 AMThe music definitely grew on me with each additional hearing.

I thought it was really hard, though I'd been listening to it without a libretto as I do with a lot of operas.

Herman

Quote from: Prokofiev1891 on June 08, 2009, 07:02:46 PM
I think the 1st and 3rd movements don't have any notes in excess.

I think the rest of the symphonies have some imperfections.

2nd: There's some repetitiousness in the 1st movement, about 5 minutes into the piece.
4th: The 4th movement is a bit uneven.
5th: The 1st movement is shody and repetitious; the rest is flawless.
6th: The 3rd movement isn't put together too well; the rest is flawless.
7th: Lovely piece, but the main theme of the 4th movement isn't particularly inspired.

Then again, perfections and imperfections may not be such a great way to evaluate music. There's a lot out there that's perfectly serviceable, but not that imaginative.

I am not sure Prokofiev was in the business of composing "flawless" works at all cost. He was quite productive, as you may have noted yourself, and that means completing one work and moving on to the next even if someone else with a lot of time on his or her hands may spot a "flaw" some place.

Anyways in my view the Sixth symphony is one of the great symphonies from the WWII and after era, on a par with the greatest DSCH works that get many more performances (and recordings).

Nick

Quote from: Herman on June 13, 2009, 12:08:29 AMI am not sure Prokofiev was in the business of composing "flawless" works at all cost. . . . Anyways in my view the Sixth symphony is one of the great symphonies from the WWII and after era, on a par with the greatest DSCH works that get many more performances (and recordings).

Yes, I definitely agree with you there.

karlhenning

That's one reason (of more than one) why I misdoubt 'the composer's own' later desire to revise the Second Symphony.

Nick

Does anyone think Ivan the Terrible, Op.116 has more good music than Alexander Nevsky, Op.78? Much of the time, I tend to think so, or at least in the Gergiev recording I have and admire.

karlhenning

FWIW, I've never yet really warmed to the Ivan the Terrible music.

jowcol

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 06:51:09 AM
FWIW, I've never yet really warmed to the Ivan the Terrible music.
I must that I have never enjoyed it outside of the movie, but it worked well with the film.   (Nevsky, or course, is incredible both with the film (despite the rather poor performance/recording of the original soundtrack) and on it's own.  I've not heard the Gergiev recording-- which, if nothing else, is bound to be interesting!  ;D

I forget which version I have at home-- but it's on vinyl, and it's part of that huge collection of albums that I don't play, but am very unwilling to part with.
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Nick

Quote from: jowcol on June 16, 2009, 01:07:15 PM
I must that I have never enjoyed it outside of the movie, but it worked well with the film.   (Nevsky, or course, is incredible both with the film (despite the rather poor performance/recording of the original soundtrack) and on it's own.  I've not heard the Gergiev recording-- which, if nothing else, is bound to be interesting!  ;D

I forget which version I have at home-- but it's on vinyl, and it's part of that huge collection of albums that I don't play, but am very unwilling to part with.

On the Gergiev, it sounds fantastic. He gets all the rhythms right, gives it a lot of energy. There's a lot of energy and invention in this piece. Maybe it has something to do with the version he's using.

I watched a part of it on DVD, and it didn't really do it for me there.


Dancing Divertimentian

#393
Just took delivery of this a couple days ago:





Haven't heard it in its entirety yet but am anxious to do so. Notable so far is the amount of subtlety Prokofiev employs, with plenty of soft passages which caress and coddle the ear - rather in opposition to another opera of his, Love For Three Oranges, which relishes in its jutting attacks. Not that Fiery Angel is watered-down Prokofiev - on the contrary - it's just that when Prokofiev is in 'poetic' mode he can just about 'out-poet' anybody from the 20th century (or any century). The man clearly had it all.

One other standout feature is the high quality of the orchestration: the richness and complexity are phenomenal, almost as if he had swiped a page right from Ravel's playbook. But it's 100% pure Prokofiev and it's easy to see why he extracted a good chunk of this music to form his third symphony. However, I will say, listening to what I have so far leads me to think the music is best served with the vocal element left intact, such is the deep integration of the vocal lines. Much more of a piece that way - to these ears.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Nick

Wow are you in for a treat! My favorite Prokofiev opera.

That's it, that's the recording. It's something else. I wrote a paper on it at my undergraduate institution.

How much did you pay for it, I wonder? It's been out of print for a while.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Nick on June 17, 2009, 08:00:34 PM
How much did you pay for it, I wonder? It's been out of print for a while.

I found it - of all places - on Amazon Canada!

And not too shabby of a price: for a new copy, something like $40.00 with price adjustments. Far less than many of the used copies floating around Amazon.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

jowcol

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 17, 2009, 07:57:27 PM

it's just that when Prokofiev is in 'poetic' mode he can just about 'out-poet' anybody from the 20th century (or any century).

A couple of the slow passages in Chout I think are among his best of this sort.  Introspective, moody, and down right bluesy in spots, yet with this pervasive sense of mystery.  I keep coming back to Chout since it seems to have some many different sides of Prokofiev's personality in the same score. 
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

karlhenning

And L'enfant prodigue!  That one melts me every time.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: jowcol on June 19, 2009, 07:42:09 AM
A couple of the slow passages in Chout I think are among his best of this sort.  Introspective, moody, and down right bluesy in spots, yet with this pervasive sense of mystery.  I keep coming back to Chout since it seems to have some many different sides of Prokofiev's personality in the same score. 

Yes, good point. Chout is a glowing score.

To me Prokofiev is too often pigeonholed as L'enfant terrible. I guess this sort of thing is good for ad copy but isn't really representative of Prokofiev's talents.

Yes, certainly the innovation just flew from his pen but I prefer to think of him as simply a great artist. It's the depth and skill of his writing that's most amazing to me, not necessarily the "novelty".
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 19, 2009, 07:44:13 AM
And L'enfant prodigue!  That one melts me every time.

Need to revisit that one soon...
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach