Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

[karlhenning]

Incidentally.

[Nick]

To me Prokofiev is too often pigeonholed as L'enfant terrible. I guess this sort of thing is good for ad copy but isn't really representative of Prokofiev's talents.

Too often pigeonholed as L'enfant terrible? I wish he were characterized as that more often. Seems to me as though he's thought of more as "not modern enough."

A lot of times when I go to a Prokofiev concert, people next to me say that they thought he was more melodic than that (that what they just heard).

I really wish they'd revive Fiery Angel for production in the states. I was too young to ever hear it when it came to America. Fortunately, a friend was able to get me a copy (also now out of print) of the Gergiev production DVD. Very well done, indeed.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Too often pigeonholed as L'enfant terrible? I wish he were characterized as that more often.

I don't feel he fits the stereotype. There are a great many of his works which to varying degrees have a lyricism at their center: Betrothel and Semyon Kotko (two operas which are mainstream to the core); Cinderella; his ninth piano sonata; his violin concertos.....

Seems to me as though he's thought of more as "not modern enough."

Give him credit for being "well rounded", then.

[Nick]

Dear Dancing Divertimentian:

If you enjoy the more lyrical side of Prokofiev, I'd really recommend On the Dnieper, Op.51; Sinfonietta, Op.5/48; Divertissement, Op.43; Five Songs Without Words, Op.35bis; String Quartet No.2, Op.92; March, Op.99; Three Pieces, Op.59, but I imagine that you're likely already familiar with almost all of these.

The only problem in collecting On the Dnieper, Op.51 is that its most recent recording (Polyansky) comes with with a filler that, to me, is one of the top ten least successful Prokofiev pieces, Songs of Our Days, Op.76. Instead, there's one that's supposed to be pretty good (Rozhdestvensky) that contains another top-drawer Prokofiev piece, Le Pas d'Acier, Op.41. Course, lyrical isn't the first word that comes to mind with Pas d'Acier, though a lot of people cite it as the beginning of his commitment to a "new simplicity" since it's diatonic.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Dear Dancing Divertimentian:

If you enjoy the more lyrical side of Prokofiev, I'd really recommend On the Dnieper, Op.51; Sinfonietta, Op.5/48; Divertissement, Op.43; Five Songs Without Words, Op.35bis; String Quartet No.2, Op.92; March, Op.99; Three Pieces, Op.59, but I imagine that you're likely already familiar with almost all of these.

Truth be told, I probably lean more towards Prokofiev's more teeth-rattling side. But I certainly enjoy the lyricism when it pops up.

I just think it great that Prokofiev can do both so well.

The only problem in collecting On the Dnieper, Op.51 is that its most recent recording (Polyansky) comes with with a filler that, to me, is one of the top ten least successful Prokofiev pieces, Songs of Our Days, Op.76.

Talk about coincidence. I just wrote a mini-review of Polyansky's Op.76 on the opera board. I seemed to have an easier time with the work than you did and was absolutely bowled over by the high lyricism of the Lullaby movement. Gorgeous.

Now, I will agree the text is tough to swallow but the music kept me entertained till the end.

[The new erato]

Truth be told, I probably lean more towards Prokofiev's more teeth-rattling side. But I certainly enjoy the lyricism when it pops up.

I just think it great that Prokofiev can do both so well.

Talk about coincidence. I just wrote a mini-review of Polyansky's Op.76 on the opera board. I seemed to have an easier time with the work than you did and was absolutely bowled over by the high lyricism of the Lullaby movement. Gorgeous.

Now, I will agree the text is tough to swallow but the music kept me entertained till the end.

Thanks. I'm expecting this disc in my mailbox any day now, then I'll see.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Thanks. I'm expecting this disc in my mailbox any day now, then I'll see.

Be curious to hear your impressions, erato.

[karlhenning]

Talk about coincidence. I just wrote a mini-review of Polyansky's Op.76 on the opera board. I seemed to have an easier time with the work than you did and was absolutely bowled over by the high lyricism of the Lullaby movement. Gorgeous.

Now, I will agree the text is tough to swallow but the music kept me entertained till the end.

Similarly, I find it fairly easy to let the text pass by with minimal annoyance, and to concentrate on the quality of Sergei Sergeyevich's music.

[Cato]

For lyricism and sabre-rattling, don't forget Chout and Ala et Lolly aka The Scythian Suite!

The latter, although a little derivative from Le Sacre, has its great moments with both qualities: I recall especially the old RCA recording with Erich Leinsdorf (and the Boston Symphony ?) from the middle 60's of The Scythian Suite which was really remarkable. 

[bhodges]

I love the Scythian Suite, which was among the first classical pieces I ever heard (the old Hermann Scherchen/VSO recording on Westminster), and played it to death.  Among modern versions, I have Gergiev's and like it just fine.  Got to hear it live in 2006, when Kurt Masur returned to conduct it with the New York Philharmonic.  A fantastic thing to hear in the concert hall!

--Bruce

[jowcol]

I agree-- both on the Scythian Suite, and also having fun with the Gergiev version.

[Nick]

Often the odd man out here, the Scythian Suite, Op.20 doesn't particularly impress me relative to a lot of other P works.

But I do prefer the teeth-rattling Prokofiev. Among those more rarely mentioned that I particularly enjoy are The Gambler, Op.24; Sarcasms, Op.17; Symphonic Song, Op.57; Five Poems, Op.23; Sonatinas, Op.54; Piano Concerto No.5, Op.55; Thoughts, Op.62; Four Etudes, Op.2, and even Four Pieces, Op.4 and Things in Themselves, Op.45. I've talked about most of these before.

I feel as though the Piano Concerto No.5, Op.55 sometimes gets overlooked. Very complex albeit tonal material.

The Four Pieces, Op.4 have a lot going for them; more angular themes, chromatic.

The Sonatinas, Op.54 are very difficult for the listener.

Five Poems, Op.23 is a terrific set!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

...I recall especially the old RCA recording with Erich Leinsdorf (and the Boston Symphony ?) from the middle 60's of The Scythian Suite which was really remarkable.

A surprising source of Prokofiev goodness appears all the world to come from Leinsdorf and the BSO. I say surprising because up until a couple years ago I pretty much had misgivings about everything Leinsdorf touched. But Prokofiev seems to have been close to his heart and Testament's reissues of this part of Leinsdorf's discography have so far (what I've heard) been smashing successes. Though I don't believe the Scythian Suite is included in that series.

[Catison]

But I do prefer the teeth-rattling Prokofiev. Among those more rarely mentioned that I particularly enjoy are The Gambler, Op.24; Sarcasms, Op.17; Symphonic Song, Op.57; Five Poems, Op.23; Sonatinas, Op.54; Piano Concerto No.5, Op.55; Thoughts, Op.62; Four Etudes, Op.2, and even Four Pieces, Op.4 and Things in Themselves, Op.45. I've talked about most of these before.

I spent roughly a year of my life listening to everything Prokofiev has ever written, and I can proudly say there are few pieces I haven't heard.  I've also read the Jaffe and Robinson biographies.  I'm a Prokofiev nut, but I have yet to hear anyone who actually likes the Symphonic Song or the Sonatinas.  You are certainly the odd man out.

[Nick]

I spent roughly a year of my life listening to everything Prokofiev has ever written, and I can proudly say there are few pieces I haven't heard.  I've also read the Jaffe and Robinson biographies.  I'm a Prokofiev nut, but I have yet to hear anyone who actually likes the Symphonic Song or the Sonatinas.  You are certainly the odd man out.

There's no question that the Sonatinas, Op.54 are very demanding on the listener. I used to dislike them. They're chromatic and very atypical for Prokofiev. But unlike, for example, the Piano Sonata No.5, Op.38/135, where I have trouble seeing how some elements of the chromaticism really suit the demands of the piece, here I can see and understand why he's doing what he's doing. It's thorny stuff, as thorny as it gets, and it can seem whimsical at times, like the Piano Concerto No.5, Op.55, but there's a method to the madness. It just takes listens and more listens. One man who particularly enjoys the Sonatinas, Op.54 is the co-founder of the Prokofiev Society of America at Yale, Boris Berman. He plays the sonatinas pretty regularly, most recently at Bargemusic in Brooklyn, NY last year.

For the Symphonic Song, Op.57, I have more trouble understanding why it wouldn't appeal. It's a gorgeous piece. It's difficult too. The people I know who have listened to it are few, but only one of them didn't find that it appealed to him. (See a post several pages back on this site.) I certainly don't think I'm the odd man out on this one. To me, this is one of his best pieces, and I'm hardly alone. It's not easy, and very difficult listening. There's almost a bit of Berg in it, or a bit of Symphonic Song, Op.57 in Berg. And what a gorgeous melody at the end climax!

[karlhenning]

There's no question that the Sonatinas, Op.54 are very demanding on the listener.

I question that.  "Demanding" is not at all the way I should describe them.

[Nick]

I question that.  "Demanding" is not at all the way I should describe them.

We disagree then.

[Nick]

There's some real rareties we still haven't talked about at all that I also really like a lot . . .

Dumka, for piano solo [no opus number]
Green Jar, for bass and piano [no opus number]

Some stuff that's only been played once or twice in the US that I enjoy very much. . .

Boris Godunov, Op.70bis
Two Poems for Women's Voice and Orchestra, Op.7
National Anthem of the Soviet Union, Op.98
Gymnastic Exercises [unpublished]

Then there are other parts of the oeuvre, where I love parts, but not others.

--In the Four Pieces, Op.32, Nos. 1, and 4 seem as good as Prokofiev and music gets.
--In Maddalena, Op.13, I love the first few scenes. It's a masterpiece in those early scenes, but then Prokofiev didn't get around to totally finishing it, and it doesn't have the same appeal to me.
--The last two of the Three Pieces, Op.59 are lyrical, rather French in some ways, beautiful, but the opening Promenade doesn't quite do it for me in the same way.

As a side note, I was looking through my Berman set of the solo piano music the other day, and it looks like David Fanning, a man I don't like, actually did have the same reaction to some of the early Prokofiev solo piano music as well; that is, he compares it with Bartok's solo piano music.

"The 'Suggestion diabolique' (as it was christened by his friend Walter Nouvel) was found to be especially striking and later became one of Prokofiev's favourite recital pieces. It shows him working on similar lines to Bartok (compare the latter's Allegro barbaro of 1911) through from an independent direction related to the turn-of-the-century 'Decadent' movement in the Russian arts."

Interesting, no?

[Nick]

Had anyone realized the extent to which Honneger idolized Prokofiev?

It turns out that he'd said that Prokofiev "would remain for us the greatest figure of contemporary music."

[DavidRoss]

Had anyone realized the extent to which Honneger idolized Prokofiev?

It turns out that he'd said that Prokofiev "would remain for us the greatest figure of contemporary music."

Who was the "us" whom Honegger had in mind?  And when did he say this?  (I presume no later than the early '50s.)