Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

Started by Danny, April 07, 2007, 09:29:23 AM

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Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2011, 09:26:34 PM
So what do you, DD, think about Le pas l'arcier? I've heard excerpts from this ballet (courtesy of Jarvi/Chandos) and thought the music packed a heavy duty punch.

I enjoy the piece a lot. It's another undiscovered gem that doesn't get the mainstream attention it deserves. Much like a lot of Prokofiev.



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mirror Image

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 13, 2011, 09:36:35 PM
I enjoy the piece a lot. It's another undiscovered gem that doesn't get the mainstream attention it deserves. Much like a lot of Prokofiev.

Tell me about it. There's so much that goes unnoticed by the general public. I wonder out of let's say 10 concertgoers, which ones would you think are actual serious classical listeners?

Herman

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2011, 08:28:03 PM
Prokofiev's operas never interested me. Don't know why, but then again, I don't really care to examine the reasons of why I never cared to explore them.

Anyway, I have enough Prokofiev recordings on the way to keep me busy for awhile...

I don't listen to Prokofiev operas a whole lot either, if only because of the time it takes, but it is no more than fair to consider that these works are of the highest importance for the Prokofiev oeuvre: Three Oranges, Fiery Angel, and War & Peace. These are central works.

Mirror Image

I think the neglect of many of Prokofiev's ballets is shameful. Here we have a major 20th Century composer who's writing in one of his preferred genres and completely at the top of his game. Listened to more excerpts from The Stone Flower, which was his last ballet, and what beautiful, lyrical work. I wish I could see a performance of one of Prokofiev's ballets with a major conductor and orchestra. Man, how I would love this. I wonder why orchestras aren't performing ballets as much as they have in the past? Many of these ballets can stand alone without the choreography. I mean look at Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe when was the last time this ballet was actually staged and how often does it get performed this way?

Herman

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2011, 07:58:01 AM
I wish I could see a performance of one of Prokofiev's ballets with a major conductor and orchestra. Man, how I would love this. I wonder why orchestras aren't performing ballets as much as they have in the past?

The reason is quite simple.

Prokofiev's ballets are performed quite often.

As ballets.

Both Cinderella and R&J are in the repertoire of most major ballet companies. Ashton's Cinderella is one of the crown jewels of the Royal Ballet's rep, and many other companies perform their own version.

So all you have to do, is go to the theater, rather than to the concert hall.

Musically this doesn't have to be a step down.

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2011, 06:41:38 PM
By the way, Cato, these are the recordings I bought of Prokofiev/Rozhdestvensky:





Have you heard any of these recordings?

Possibly The Stone Flower many decades ago: Rozhdestvensky in my experience was always a sure bet!

Please give us a review of the sound quality when you have a chance!  I see that they are Melodiya CD's: maybe eventually the record of Symero Ikh that I showed earlier will be re-released as a CD!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Cato on October 15, 2011, 03:36:57 AM
Possibly The Stone Flower many decades ago: Rozhdestvensky in my experience was always a sure bet!

Please give us a review of the sound quality when you have a chance!  I see that they are Melodiya CD's: maybe eventually the record of Symero Ikh that I showed earlier will be re-released as a CD!

I have only listened to the recording of Chout right now and the audio quality isn't bad at all. This was an '80s recording, so perhaps they had better technology to work with at this juncture, but I can honestly endorse this recording. The performance from Rozhdestvensky was pretty edgy though, but it suited the music well I think.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2011, 03:30:16 AM
The reason is quite simple.

Prokofiev's ballets are performed quite often.

As ballets.

Both Cinderella and R&J are in the repertoire of most major ballet companies. Ashton's Cinderella is one of the crown jewels of the Royal Ballet's rep, and many other companies perform their own version.

So all you have to do, is go to the theater, rather than to the concert hall.

Musically this doesn't have to be a step down.

Perhaps you're right, Herman. I need to see my local ballet company are doing anything worthwhile...

Edit: Nope, just Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker. ::) Like I said, I'll go when there's something worthwhile to see.

karlhenning

Ouch! I don't like to see Tchaikovsky sneered at! He was one of Prokofiev's models, you know.

madaboutmahler

#789
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2011, 04:25:08 AM
Ouch! I don't like to see Tchaikovsky sneered at! He was one of Prokofiev's models, you know.

Me neither! I love "The Nutcracker"! :)

As I am just about to start a Prokofiev phase I thought it would be a good idea to join this topic ;)
For a long while I listened to very little Prokofiev, then I heard R+J (well, an hour of selections from it ;) ) in concert and was so very amazed by it, such beautiful, powerful and thrilling music! It amazed me how Prokofiev could achieve such violent sarcasm (for example, Tybalt's death) and also such innocent sounding beauty (for example, Juliet's death). When that C Major chord sounds in Juliet's Death, it always makes me shiver and weep... so beautiful. So R+J quickly became one of my favourite pieces of all time and now I am very keen to revisit Prokofiev. So obviously I shall return to the symphonies and concerti. But I have this extra interest in the ballets, Alexander Nevsky cantata, various orchestral suites etc. So, I am really looking forward to starting my Prokofiev phase, I already have this cd on the way...
[asin]B000001GQC[asin]

I am planning to buy some of the Jarvi recordings soon, and maybe some of the chamber music/piano sonatas as well.
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

karlhenning

There's so very much beautiful work in his catalogue. If I had to nominate a single stop-everything-&-listen-to-this piece, it would be the f minor violin sonata.

Do it!

Sergeant Rock

the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mirror Image

#792
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
As I am just about to start a Prokofiev phase I thought it would be a good idea to join this topic ;)
For a long while I listened to very little Prokofiev, then I heard R+J (well, an hour of selections from it ;) ) in concert and was so very amazed by it, such beautiful, powerful and thrilling music! It amazed me how Prokofiev could achieve such violent sarcasm (for example, Tybalt's death) and also such innocent sounding beauty (for example, Juliet's death). When that C Major chord sounds in Juliet's Death, it always makes me shiver and weep... so beautiful. So R+J quickly became one of my favourite pieces of all time and now I am very keen to revisit Prokofiev. So obviously I shall return to the symphonies and concerti. But I have this extra interest in the ballets, Alexander Nevsky cantata, various orchestral suites etc. So, I am really looking forward to starting my Prokofiev phase


I am planning to buy some of the Jarvi recordings soon, and maybe some of the chamber music/piano sonatas as well.

As we discussed on Facebook, the ballets are all worth looking into. I finished listening to "On the Dnieper" last night which is really excellent and contains some gorgeous melodies and lush harmonies. As I mentioned to you before, Sinfonia Concertante is essential listening, but the Wallfisch/Jarvi recording is my preferred recording right now. I listened to the Rostropovich on EMI twice and the first go aorund was good, but it didn't stand up well to a repeated listening. I thought the conductor, Malcolm Sargent was an odd choice and he really didn't provide the kind of accompaniment I thought the work should have. I haven't heard the Chang recording I bought yet, but I'm anxious to hear it. I can't say that I'm completely onboard with the ballet Chout. It just doesn't jive well with me, but I'll give it another listen before making another judgement on it.

Of course, the symphonies and concerti are mandatory listening IMHO. I'm really in love with Piano Concerto No. 2 right now. The last movement (Finale) is really something else. The VCs are also very good, but I like the PCs much better, and, of course, the Concertante.

TheGSMoeller

Ivan the Terrible has been gracing my ears quite a bit lately. Prokofiev never completed a concert oratorio for the film music, although concert versions, and an opera were created after his death.
Anyone interested in Prokofiev's music or an admirer of Alexander Nevsky should give Ivan the Terrible a serious listen.
If anything, you must checkout Prokofiev's chilling inclusion of the hymn Troparion of the Holy Cross (I think I have that name right, also used in 1812 Overture, maybe a fellow GMGr can confirm this or at least correct it)
in the movement The Oath of the Oprichniks.

Gergiev is getting some love & hate these days, but this recording with Rotterdam Phil. is wonderful.


karlhenning

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2011, 07:31:05 AM
. . . Of course, the symphonies and concerti are mandatory listening.

Well, if that be true of the symphonies and concerti, it's even truer of the piano solo music and operas. Just saying.

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
Well, if that be true of the symphonies and concerti, it's even truer of the piano solo music and operas. Just saying.

Don't forget his SQs, violin sonatas, cello sonatas, film music, vocal works...
;D

karlhenning

You're diluting my point, though, Greg. Not that there's anything wrong with MI's approach of favoring works for orchestra, especially as Prokofiev was such a colorful orchestrator.  But when he was yet in his early teens, Prokofiev was already writing piano solo music and opera;  and he worked in those genres throughout his life.  Herman has already pointed out the importance of War and Peace; and there is an unfinished tenth piano sonata left in but a fragment.  There is a strong case to be made for if you don't know the piano solo music and operas, you don't really know Prokofiev.  Rather a weaker case for the symphonies, I should think.

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 09:13:51 AMThere is a strong case to be made for if you don't know the piano solo music and operas, you don't really know Prokofiev.

Since I don't much care for solo piano or opera, this doesn't mean that I don't know Prokofiev. I don't understand why you make statements like this that are completely ridiculous. One can listen to any work by Prokofiev and get a feel of his harmonic, melodic language. I could listen to Romeo & Juliet and gain as much knowledge about his music as somebody who's heard his entire output. My point is Prokofiev was such a unique composer that it doesn't take much to become familiar with his musical language. Does a person have to know a composer's piano music to really know them? No, because the music presents itself the same way in every musical context. The language is always Prokofiev's. He wrote prolifically in all genres that it doesn't really matter what you listen to, you're still going to walk away with knowledge of what the music sounds like and what kind of sound-world he works with.

karlhenning

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2011, 09:36:07 AM
Since I don't much care for solo piano or opera, this doesn't mean that I don't know Prokofiev.

In just such a way, I hear someone saying, Just because I don't much care for organ music, this doesn't mean that I don't know Bach. And, Just because I don't much care for string quartets, this doesn't mean that I don't know Bartók.

As to whether my remark was ridiculous, I remind you that you began by asserting that the symphonies and concerti are mandatory listening.  So, by all means, tell me that my corrective statement is ridiculous, but then, you've just pulled the rug out from under your own soapbox (to gleefully mix metaphors).

TheGSMoeller

#799
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 09:13:51 AM
You're diluting my point, though, Greg. Not that there's anything wrong with MI's approach of favoring works for orchestra, especially as Prokofiev was such a colorful orchestrator.  But when he was yet in his early teens, Prokofiev was already writing piano solo music and opera;  and he worked in those genres throughout his life.  Herman has already pointed out the importance of War and Peace; and there is an unfinished tenth piano sonata left in but a fragment.  There is a strong case to be made for if you don't know the piano solo music and operas, you don't really know Prokofiev.  Rather a weaker case for the symphonies, I should think.

My words were in no way trying to purposely dilute your point, Karl, or even tear down MI's opinion of "mandatory" works, which it seems it may have done both.
I've just always been opposed to labeling a composer's piece as "mandatory", just as labeling a particular recording of a piece as "definitive", and I chose to express this by listing more genres Prokofiev's music that I enjoy.

<------blame it on the Sock Monkey. (forgot I changed my avatar monkey)