Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

Started by Danny, April 07, 2007, 09:29:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

karlhenning

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2011, 09:46:26 AM
. . . I've just always been opposed to labeling a composer's piece as "mandatory", just as labeling a particular recording of a piece as "definitive" . . .

I am in complete solidarity with you in this.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2011, 09:46:26 AM
. . . and I chose to express this by listing more genres Prokofiev's music that I enjoy.

Ho capito.

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 09:42:41 AM
In just such a way, I hear someone saying, Just because I don't much care for organ music, this doesn't mean that I don't know Bach. And, Just because I don't much care for string quartets, this doesn't mean that I don't know Bartók.

As to whether my remark was ridiculous, I remind you that you began by asserting that the symphonies and concerti are mandatory listening.  So, by all means, tell me that my corrective statement is ridiculous, but then, you've just pulled the rug out from under your own soapbox (to gleefully mix metaphors).


But I never made the point of saying "If you don't listen to these works, then you don't know Prokofiev." No, you sir, made this statement not I.

karlhenning

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2011, 10:06:06 AM
But I never made the point of saying "If you don't listen to these works, then you don't know Prokofiev." No, you sir, made this statement not I.

Let's go back to the videotape:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 09:13:51 AM
You're diluting my point, though, Greg. Not that there's anything wrong with MI's approach of favoring works for orchestra, especially as Prokofiev was such a colorful orchestrator.  But when he was yet in his early teens, Prokofiev was already writing piano solo music and opera;  and he worked in those genres throughout his life.  Herman has already pointed out the importance of War and Peace; and there is an unfinished tenth piano sonata left in but a fragment.  There is a strong case to be made for if you don't know the piano solo music and operas, you don't really know Prokofiev.  Rather a weaker case for the symphonies, I should think.

Note the phrase:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 09:13:51 AM
. . . There is a strong case to be made for . . . .

. . . which is a matter different to (and, to my mind, less objectionable than) an assertion of Mandatory Listening.

Do we still have a quarrel, John?

Mirror Image

#803
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2011, 10:18:55 AM
Let's go back to the videotape:

Note the phrase:

. . . which is a matter different to (and, to my mind, less objectionable than) an assertion of Mandatory Listening.

Do we still have a quarrel, John?


This still doesn't change the fact that whether you meant what you said or not, that you implied "If you don't listen to these works, then you don't know Prokofiev." You can give me some vague explanation and try to make it out to be any way you want, but this doesn't change the fact that you made this implication and I did not.

Anyway, back to regularly scheduled programming...

karlhenning

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2011, 10:24:15 AM
This still doesn't change the fact that whether you meant what you said or not, that you implied "If you don't listen to these works, then you don't know Prokofiev." You can give me some vague explanation and try to make it out to be any way you want, but this doesn't change the fact that you made this implication and I did not.

Put it another way, John: I proposed a case from the composer's biography of the importance of those genres. You're just bandying the phrase "Mandatory listening" based on your own enthusiasm. Which of us is possessed of the stronger argument?

Mirror Image

Anyway, Karl, I'm done arguing. It's pointless really, because we all listen to the music we enjoy, regardless of it's importance or not. Was Prokofiev's On the Dnieper a historic and groundbreaking work? Of course not, but this doesn't damper my enjoyment of it. Let's just move on shall we?

North Star

#806
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
As I am just about to start a Prokofiev phase I thought it would be a good idea to join this topic ;)
For a long while I listened to very little Prokofiev, then I heard R+J (well, an hour of selections from it ;) ) in concert and was so very amazed by it, such beautiful, powerful and thrilling music! It amazed me how Prokofiev could achieve such violent sarcasm (for example, Tybalt's death) and also such innocent sounding beauty (for example, Juliet's death). When that C Major chord sounds in Juliet's Death, it always makes me shiver and weep... so beautiful. So R+J quickly became one of my favourite pieces of all time and now I am very keen to revisit Prokofiev. So obviously I shall return to the symphonies and concerti. But I have this extra interest in the ballets, Alexander Nevsky cantata, various orchestral suites etc. So, I am really looking forward to starting my Prokofiev phase, I already have this cd on the way...
[asin]B000001GQC[/asin]

I am planning to buy some of the Jarvi recordings soon, and maybe some of the chamber music/piano sonatas as well.

For the piano sonatas, I recommend this superb set:
http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Sonatas-1-9-Matti-Raekallio/dp/B004TWOXGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318885413&sr=8-1
[asin]B004TWOXGC[/asin]
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

madaboutmahler

Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2011, 01:07:17 PM
For the piano sonatas, I recommend this superb set:
http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Sonatas-1-9-Matti-Raekallio/dp/B004TWOXGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318885413&sr=8-1
[asin]B004TWOXGC[asin]

Thank you for your recommendation. I have listened to some of the excerpts available on the amazon website, and it sounds great! Also pleased to see it comes with many extras! :) Thank you again!

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Dancing Divertimentian

Hmm...I kind of like seeing Prokofiev's thread getting wound up on the level of, say, a Beethoven thread! I guess Prokofiev's hit the big time at last! ;D


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mirror Image

#809
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2011, 07:21:19 PM
Hmm...I kind of like seeing Prokofiev's thread getting wound up on the level of, say, a Beethoven thread! I guess Prokofiev's hit the big time at last! ;D

I'll continue to promote his music whenever I get the opportunity. He has sunk his teeth into my heart. I am one with this music now. 8)

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 17, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
He has sunk his teeth into my heart. I am one with this music now. 8)


Sounds like something a Vampire-Jedi might say. ;D

Mirror Image


Mirror Image

Found this rare video of Prokofiev playing the piano and speaking:

http://www.youtube.com/v/zA82T3wFyi8

Herman

I think the sneer was more aimed at the deplorable habit of ballet companies, particularly in the US, to spend the last months of the year doing the Nutcracker.

I don't know what your location is, M.I., but I guess I was thinking of a major ballet company, with a good orchestra in the pit.

karlhenning

Quote from: Herman on October 18, 2011, 12:12:02 AM
I think the sneer was more aimed at the deplorable habit of ballet companies, particularly in the US, to spend the last months of the year doing the Nutcracker.

Yes. Still, it's a good ballet, and that deplorable habit is (probably) better than no ballet.

not edward

How about Schnittke's Peer Gynt for a Christmas ballet?

I jest, of course, but here in Toronto (not that great a city for live music) we had Cinderella last November and Romeo and Juliet starting next month.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

karlhenning

Thanks again, Edward . . . I think I may have settled on the Leinsdorf/BSO reissue box on my own, and then afterward saw your positive remarks.  Really enjoy it in its entirety;  just listened to the Киже suite (was curious to hear how David Clatworthy would do with the Russian, not bad, really) . . . very nice to have the quiet close of that suite serve as the end of the 6-CD box.

karlhenning

Hmm, and tying in with recent buzz on Romeo & Juliet . . . Leinsdorf abbreviates the Knights' Dance rather.

not edward

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2011, 07:33:19 AM
Thanks again, Edward . . . I think I may have settled on the Leinsdorf/BSO reissue box on my own, and then afterward saw your positive remarks.  Really enjoy it in its entirety;  just listened to the Киже suite (was curious to hear how David Clatworthy would do with the Russian, not bad, really) . . . very nice to have the quiet close of that suite serve as the end of the 6-CD box.
I went ahead and bought the box myself last night when I saw a copy for sale under $20. Three and a half discs of non-duplication seemed worth it.

I had enough time to listen to the four symphony recordings: generally very positive impressions. Leinsdorf's view certainly emphasises both the brutal and lyrical aspects of the works, and perhaps lacks a little nuance in between (some of this is probably the rather unexceptional remastering, definitely inferior to the Testament reissue of the piano concerti). I thought the 6th came off really well--a very powerful and moving performance and quite possibly the best I've heard after Mravinsky; the second was very good as well with the opening salvo brutal in the extreme but the second movement sounding as melodic as I've ever heard it. The 3rd was solid rather than exceptional to me, though I admit I'm spoilt with the live Kondrashin in this one; probably the 5th was the only performance that underwhelmed me, as it seemed to be a bit too straight. (Or maybe I was just tired by then.)

Anyway, good stuff. I will definitely be curious to hear Perlman's 2nd violin concerto and the R&J extracts when I get home from work tonight.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

TheGSMoeller

http://www.youtube.com/v/BUNdSRVxC-Y&feature=related

Prokofiev: Symphony No.7, movement IV
Ozawa/Berlin Phil.

Although I still believe Tennstedt recorded the best 7th, this Ozawa comes very close. Here is the 4th movement with Prokofiev's original, and more dramatic, ending, the way I promote it should be heard. In order to win a Stalin Prize, Prokofiev
added an extra 20 seconds to offer a more uplifting ending, I've read that Prokofiev was not very well off towards the end of his life so this could have been the motivation for this addition.
Also, the fact that it was commissioned for a children's program shouldn't give a first time listener any direction on it's musical quality, at it's heart it is very dramatic and quite lovely, it's more Romeo & Juliet than say, Peter and the Wolf