Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

[Karl Henning]

Ouch!

[snyprrr]

I like the Szell
(Aye, very well.)

I don't recall the Järvi take on the Op.100;  but then, as a rule, the best that he manages in his symphony cycle is where he does The Least Harm

snypsss, I can only hazard a guess, at best, but here are those guesses: Slava & Ozawa.

That's what I was thinking...but hesitated to provide that answer because snyprrr always, always, rejects my recommendations    Celibidache is also rather middle-of-the-roadish actually...and I love almost everything Russian he did. As good as his Bruckner.

Sarge

Did you guys see the Timings Chart in the 'Prokofiev Op.100' Thread? See how there are these almost natural breaks where different Conductors congregate? Anyway, it raises a looot of questions:

1) So,... Szell,... what of the next quickest, the 'live' Jansons/Chandos, which I thought was 'proper' fast. Szell's just off the charts (like Levi is on the other end). Anyhow, you haaave to admit that Prokofiev couldn't have intended his music to flow thaaat fast,... just by a slice? I mean, Jansons isn't MOR by any stretch, right?

2) As far as enjoying extreme tempos- I just don't hear how this music can be 'interpreted': it wants to be played at the speed it was written, so the accents fall on the part of the beat that they were intended to fall on. With music like this, gearing it up or down a couple of notches alters the actual rhythmic flow- Prokofiev was like Stravinsky in that he didn't want his music "nudged"? (Shosty 5- now, that's a fun one to hear in different guises) (I wish someone would post Sanderling 15 on YT)

3) Jarvi's reputation in Prokofiev must have gone underground lately?! The same with Ashkenazy. Both of their 5ths seem to be easy to dismiss at first, but the farther down the rabbit hole you go, the more they weigh.

4) Now, Ozawa's reputation in Prokofiev, at least the Symphonies, has always been shit. I mean,... it has (the reputation). Surely, there must be some jewels- some say 2, some 5, some 7. I'd be willing to fork the $5 to let Ozawa bust my cherry.

Here's where my search led last night:- please, may I 'Aside'?
     That certain special something that this Symphony has, well, it hit me here, and I understand that it's the kind of music that makes everyone crazy "doin' it their way", and that there are, extant, a myriad of totally different approaches here (from Szell to Levi, and beyond). So, I've already seen that for myself, I either want the 'Straight' performance, and maybe the 'Jurassic' performance (Levi),... but I didn't like the '4th of July' performance (Levine), and I thought Karajan was just a little too straight, Teutonic?,... Dutoit's first movement, at 14:00 was both too slow for the fast version and too fast for the slow version (not that everyone's 14:00 is the same perhaps),...

ok, after last night's research, here's who intrigues me:

Jansons 'live'/Chandos (the second fastest performance,... sounds thrilling)

Jarvi/Chandos (high marks even from people who normally are critical here)

Ashkenazy/Decca (again, some fervent advocacy sways me to believe this could be glorious- Ashkenazy's sound for Decca is usually exceptionally good)

Ozawa (I believe Karl)

Masur (I don't know- Teldec sound,... Masur,... anyone?, Bueller?,... for sound alone...)


Tennstedt (the one AmazonReviewer 'Man with Flannel Hat' or something,... his critical review offset SOME of the awesomeness I've heard that really has me wondering here. Exactly how good is this one again? Read his review please...


Muti & Previn (both on Philips,... anyone?,... I'd get for sound alone)


Levi (anyone?,... this sounds so tantalizing, but it could suck too, so,... which is it?)
MTT (some very very high marks indeed,... apparently spectacular sound?)



Gergiev
Bernstein
Martinon
Mravinsky
Celibidache
Rohzensky(?)
Rattle
Handley(!)EMI

[Karl Henning]

3) Jarvi's reputation in Prokofiev must have gone underground lately?!

Well, he was contracted to record too much music in too little time, so that product would be on the shelves for the centenary.  It would be a rare conductor who could be at his best for every item, in those circs.  Järvi at his best is really good (and the SNO is a great band, even where less-than-brilliantly led).  My endorsements of the Järvi/Prokofiev catalogue include:

[asin]B000000AMF[/asin]

[asin]B002EYBNS8[/asin]

[asin]B001BXN8CM[/asin]

[not edward]

I love Järvi and the RSNO.  They rock in those symphonies.  They certainly are not tame, boring performances.  They don't hold anything back.  It's rock 'em sock 'em Prokofiev. 

That's half the reason I didn't like the Jarvi recordings... the music has its lyrical side as well, and it depends on a balance between the two--particularly in the 2nd and 3rd, where I felt he fell into the trap of focusing far too strongly on the aggressive side (I think he completely missed the point in the 7th as well, but then again I think many conductors do).

Oddly, I think he did quite a bit better in some of the non-symphonic works: I found his Prodigal Son excellent; it most definitely does strike that balance.

[snyprrr]

That's half the reason I didn't like the Jarvi recordings... the music has its lyrical side as well, and it depends on a balance between the two--particularly in the 2nd and 3rd, where I felt he fell into the trap of focusing far too strongly on the aggressive side (I think he completely missed the point in the 7th as well, but then again I think many conductors do).

Oddly, I think he did quite a bit better in some of the non-symphonic works: I found his Prodigal Son excellent; it most definitely does strike that balance.

I'd love to hear your Symphony 5 Top5!

Well, he was contracted to record too much music in too little time, so that product would be on the shelves for the centenary.  It would be a rare conductor who could be at his best for every item, in those circs.  Järvi at his best is really good (and the SNO is a great band, even where less-than-brilliantly led).  My endorsements of the Järvi/Prokofiev catalogue include:

[asin]B000000AMF[/asin]

[asin]B002EYBNS8[/asin]

[asin]B001BXN8CM[/asin]

Also the one with 'Andante' and 'Trapeze' (has a darkish landscape painting). And I think the Sinfonia Concertante with Wallfisch might be a keeper,... the 'Divertimento',... 'Sinfonietta',... OH WAIT- same album, different cover, lolz!! :laugh:sorry

You have to understand that I rate Jarvi exactly like you all do, but maybe I just have a soft spot for BabyFace- I highly vet(right spelling?) every Jarvi consideration- I don't think I have ANY Jarvi at the moment (I do recommend DSCH 6)-

but I give him credit for just "being there", I dunno...

[snyprrr]

I like the Szell
(Aye, very well.)

I don't recall the Järvi take on the Op.100;  but then, as a rule, the best that he manages in his symphony cycle is where he does The Least Harm

snypsss, I can only hazard a guess, at best, but here are those guesses: Slava & Ozawa.

That's what I was thinking...but hesitated to provide that answer because snyprrr always, always, rejects my recommendations    Celibidache is also rather middle-of-the-roadish actually...and I love almost everything Russian he did. As good as his Bruckner.

Sarge

I picked Ozawa for First Listen! I just get a feeling here... or it would have been Ashkenazy. And I'm wondering about Masur/Teldec.

And here I thought you liked and wanted to hear extreme interpretations! Now I find out you're a boring middle-of-the-roader! I'm so disappointed

Szell's Prok isn't everyone's favorite but it is mine. It doesn't sound fast to me but just right. I admit that surprises me. More often than not I prefer slower to faster in almost any music. But not op.100.

Heeey!!

Jansons is the second fastest, and his sounds fine to me,... but I was writing somewhere how this particular piece of music has that - almost elastic quality that can take the first movement from Szell's 10 minutes to Levi's almost 15 minutes. It's uniquely suited, by melodic invention, to withstand 'torture', which, frankly, sooomeone must be doing to it- Prokofiev surely did not conceive of a movement and then figure how it would sound at different tempos- he must have had a defined parameter idea- it's NOT an Emotional piece of music,... I mean, would you call Szell the 'Intellectual' approach ('Cerebral'), or the more... mm, say,... 'Visceral'? Have you heard the Jansons?

Maybe Haitink would have done a great 5th? What do you think of the fact that Handley even has a recording?!! No Sanderling (what of that Levi??)... no Chailly...

I think it's the typical Karajan 'Kirche' recording that I don't like in that particular version?

[snyprrr]

Heard it live recently and didn't enjoy it at all. But then again I was waiting to hear Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony which was my reason for going to the concert. I am a great admirer of Prokofiev - but not this work. Doesn't surprise me that he had trouble finishing it.

Frankly, I can appreciate your experience. I don't know why I sometimes have a hard time with it- it's got nice Russian melodies, virtuosity galore, lots of interest for an almost 40 minute piece, and maybe that's where sitting through it might be be squirm inducing. I currently need to break it down into individual servings- but, with the right recording it may make a better impression? Perhaps it is a bit overwrought, but I tend to think the hard work payed off- Rostropovich sure plays the wick out of it (but his backing is so-so on all recordings). I'm currently awaiting Truls Mork with the BRSO/P.Jarvi (Virgin) coupled with the Myaskovsky,- anyhow... sonics should be

[Sergeant Rock]

Jansons is the second fastest, and his sounds fine to me,... but I was writing somewhere how this particular piece of music has that - almost elastic quality that can take the first movement from Szell's 10 minutes to Levi's almost 15 minutes. It's uniquely suited, by melodic invention, to withstand 'torture', which, frankly, sooomeone must be doing to it- Prokofiev surely did not conceive of a movement and then figure how it would sound at different tempos- he must have had a defined parameter idea- it's NOT an Emotional piece of music,... I mean, would you call Szell the 'Intellectual' approach ('Cerebral'), or the more... mm, say,... 'Visceral'? Have you heard the Jansons?

Haven't heard Jansons. I doubt I will. I have thirteen versions already and I could probably be content now with only Szell. No, I don't hear it as a cerebral approach. Szell's Prok is emotionally charged and, yes, visceral in its impact (one of the best recordings to come out of Cleveland in the 60s). The orchestra's precision, at these "extreme" speeds, is breathtaking. They really knew this Symphony.

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

For all the Neeme Jarvi haters out there!   

Prokofiev

Symphony No. 1 in D major, Op. 25 "Classical"
Symphony No. 4, Op. 112 revised 1947 version

Jarvi
Royal Scottish National Orchestra

Chandos

[asin]B001HY4TLE[/asin]

[snyprrr]

I just don't know how I'm feeling about this today. Of course who doesn't love the "perfect Shostakovich" first movement? The rest falls into 'fairy tale Prokofiev' land for me, but I'm ready to try and try again.

Jarvi was my introduction way back when. I believe I heard the Malko back then too. But, there's a curious selection of conductors for this work, and I'm curious where we all stand.

Malko- everyone likes this one; has the "happy ending"

Rozhdesvensky- some say this is the best, with the 'Radio' orchestra

Tennstedt- everyone's second choice?

Ozawa
Jarvi
Rostropovich
Ashkenazy
Gergiev
(Previn)

1) Does Karl still like Ozawa in the 7th? Wouldn't it benefit from Ozawa's nip/tuck approach?

2) Ashkenazy/Cleveland has been getting some high high marks

3) Did someone recommend Rosty, or NOT recommend??

4) I didn't like Gergiev.


Kosler- WOW! slowest timings, and verrry dreary- I likey!!
Karabits
Kuchar

Martinon/Testament
Martinon/Vox
Weller (very slow first movement!)


I'm looking for the ORIGINAL ENDING. That negates Malko. I'm torn over the Tennstedt- I really want luscious studio sound. Ozawa or Ashkenazy or Rostropovich seem like the best choice for me?

[Karl Henning]

For all the Neeme Jarvi haters out there!   

Prokofiev

Symphony No. 1 in D major, Op. 25 "Classical"
Symphony No. 4, Op. 112 revised 1947 version

Jarvi
Royal Scottish National Orchestra

Chandos

Tee-hee! My take on the Järvster is more nuanced, but... challenge accepted!

The acoustic is blurry for the Op. 25 ... so neither the composer nor conductor is well served here. (And it is a piece so amply represented on recording, that such a haze feels like phoning it in.) The Gavotte is terribly slow... as if he's calculating to set up the Finale. Can't help feeling it's bad form.

A bit of a rush, when he gets to the first subject of the Op. 112!

Separately, revisiting the Kirill Petrovich/Moscow Phil recording of the Op. 25, and, as an ungodly rush, it is iconic...turns an expertly gracious piece into a cartoon.

[Karl Henning]

1) Does Karl still like Ozawa in the 7th?

Aye, indeed he does.

[TheGSMoeller]

Aye, indeed he does.

+1

[Brahmsian]

Tee-hee! My take on the Järvster is more nuanced, but... challenge accepted!

The acoustic is blurry for the Op. 25 ... so neither the composer nor conductor is well served here. (And it is a piece so amply represented on recording, that such a haze feels like phoning it in.) The Gavotte is terribly slow... as if he's calculating to set up the Finale. Can't help feeling it's bad form.

Karl, I don't feel the same way, regarding the Op. 25.  I feel it is well paced, great energy to it.  And I don't feel the Gavotte is played too slow.

Well, we just don't have a mutual match in this one, mon ami. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Malko- everyone likes this one; has the "happy ending"

Rozhdesvensky- some say this is the best, with the 'Radio' orchestra

Tennstedt- everyone's second choice?

Kosler- WOW! slowest timings, and verrry dreary- I likey!!

Coincidently, you've "bolded" my favorite Sevenths.

What I have:

Kosler/Czech Phil               10:19  7:54  6:56  9:09 (original end)
Weller/LPO                        10:12  7:41  6:49  8:43
Ozawa/Berlin Phil                 9:52  7:58  5:48  9:00 (original end)
Gergiev/LSO                       9:52  7:34  5:50  8:33 (original end)
Kitajenko/Gürzenich            9:50  9:01  5:57  8:37 (original end)
Rostropovich/O France         9:36  7:45  6:26  9:24 (original end)
Tennstedt/SOBR                 9:15  7:55  6:43  8:49 (original end)
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow      8:41  8:02  5:45  8:23 (original end)
Järvi/Scottish National          8:39  7:52  6:15  8:15 
Malko/Philharmonia              8:30  7:48   5:22  8:15

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

Prokofiev

Symphony No. 2 in D minor, Op. 40
Symphony No. 6 in E flat minor, Op. 111

Jarvi
Royal Scottish National Orchestra

Chandos

[asin]B001HY4TLE[/asin]

[snyprrr]

Prokofiev

Symphony No. 2 in D minor, Op. 40
Symphony No. 6 in E flat minor, Op. 111

Jarvi
Royal Scottish National Orchestra

Chandos

[asin]B001HY4TLE[/asin]

Can you do a Jarvi 5 comparison with another version? How do you feel about the much maligned acoustics? (I never seemed to have a problem with Jarvi/Chandos sound)


All I've been doing is listening to this Dutoit 5- which I'm highly critical of (every tempo should be either faster OR slower)- and I'm getting slightly obsessed... just saw that Bernstein is even slower than Levi?!!

[Karl Henning]

Karl, I don't feel the same way, regarding the Op. 25.  I feel it is well paced, great energy to it.  And I don't feel the Gavotte is played too slow.

Well, we just don't have a mutual match in this one, mon ami. 

No worries, mate.  It would be a strange thing if we agreed on everything!

[snyprrr]

No worries, mate.  It would be a strange thing if we agreed on everything!

ok, so I got Ozawa and Ashkenazy (and prolly Muti) coming for 5, Rosty/Erato for 6, and Ozawa for 2/7 split. I don't know why I got all feverish over SP all of a sudden??!!??!! Haven't heard yet...

[Karl Henning]

I find I've got the Ashkenazy;  will give it a spin this evening.