Peer-to-peer File Sharing: Theft or Revenge?

[Szykneij]

You are, of course, correct in the above. It's the weak link in my argument, I realise that, but it still jars with me. As someone who has (and still does) spend so much on copyrighted material, I feel it's as criminal to overcharge as it is to simply swipe the goods off the shelf. But I appreciate this is not a view that will be universally shared nor respected.

I'm not very knowledgeable about how the music recording industry operates, but it has to be more complex than how we're perceiving the process in this thread. Trying to find information on what the typical cost breakdown is of producing and selling a CD, I came across the link below. It reveals there are many more elements to consider when trying to determine if a recording is overpriced or not.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm

[jwinter]

I support the idea of the artist getting a fair share, so for me it largely comes down to the vintage of the recording.  I wouldn't illegally grab a CD of something recorded last year, but I have no qualms grabbing or trading around something from Bruno Walter or George Szell -- almost nobody involved in the original recordings is still around to enjoy the royalty check, and the major labels are so completely clueless and nonsensical in how they handle their back catalogues that I have no problem going around them to get something that's OOP or way over-priced. 

The whole situation will only get worse, I imagine, with the continued decline of actual brick-and-mortar CDs stores, particularly ones with a decent classical selection.  Unless you live in a major city, they just don't exist anymore (and sometimes not even then) -- moving online for music purchases is unavoidable, and once you're there, why pay more money for something legal, when, just a few clicks away...

[Gurn Blanston]

I support the idea of the artist getting a fair share, so for me it largely comes down to the vintage of the recording.  I wouldn't illegally grab a CD of something recorded last year, but I have no qualms grabbing or trading around something from Bruno Walter or George Szell -- almost nobody involved in the original recordings is still around to enjoy the royalty check, and the major labels are so completely clueless and nonsensical in how they handle their back catalogues that I have no problem going around them to get something that's OOP or way over-priced. 

The whole situation will only get worse, I imagine, with the continued decline of actual brick-and-mortar CDs stores, particularly ones with a decent classical selection.  Unless you live in a major city, they just don't exist anymore (and sometimes not even then) -- moving online for music purchases is unavoidable, and once you're there, why pay more money for something legal, when, just a few clicks away...

I largely agree with most of your points, they represent my views quite well. I have never engaged in P2P, I simply don't have the technological prowess to partake, and too much to lose in any case. I have swapped OOP files though, and have no problem with it. If I spend 2 years trying to legally buy a CD to no avail and someone offers me the MP3's, I don't feel too badly about accepting them, since the record companies had more than enough chance to take my money, and obviously didn't want it.

One thing I would point out as an inaccuracy is that it isn't only old recordings that are mismanaged in this way. When I first started buying period instrument chamber music, for example, the L'Archibudelli Beethoven series was being released by SONY/Vivarte. I bought the lot for $11.99 a disk, less than 10 years ago. They went OOP within a year, and I have seen them often on Amazon Marketplace for upwards of $75, even $125 for one of the 6 Mozart disks they did. This is ludicrous! Good performances? Absolutely. $75/disk? No way! But they sell for that. I know that you, jwinter, are big on historical recordings and I'm sure you have your share of frustrations in finding them, But we period instrument people are at least as badly off, if not worse.




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Listening to:
Frans Brüggen, Bruce Haynes, Orchestra of the 18th Century - RV 101 Concerto in G for Flute 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Lethevich]

One thing I would point out as an inaccuracy is that it isn't only old recordings that are mismanaged in this way. When I first started buying period instrument chamber music, for example, the L'Archibudelli Beethoven series was being released by SONY/Vivarte. I bought the lot for $11.99 a disk, less than 10 years ago. They went OOP within a year, and I have seen them often on Amazon Marketplace for upwards of $75, even $125 for one of the 6 Mozart disks they did. This is ludicrous! Good performances? Absolutely. $75/disk? No way! But they sell for that. I know that you, jwinter, are big on historical recordings and I'm sure you have your share of frustrations in finding them, But we period instrument people are at least as badly off, if not worse.

It's amazing how clueless labels can be regarding things like this. Those discs wouldn't sell for over $50 a disc if the demand wasn't there - they could've reissued cheap boxes with linear notes on a final CD, cheapo mode, and made good money on recordings otherwise rotting in the archives. They could offer them in an online site for pure profit. Labels are FINALLY beginning to realise that the latter is a completely stupid option not to do, but even now they are dragging their feet and failing to include everything possible. They should've been doing this in 2003.

[Gurn Blanston]

It's amazing how clueless labels can be regarding things like this. Those discs wouldn't sell for over $50 a disc if the demand wasn't there - they could've reissued cheap boxes with linear notes on a final CD, cheapo mode, and made good money on recordings otherwise rotting in the archives. They could offer them in an online site for pure profit. Labels are FINALLY beginning to realise that the latter is a completely stupid option not to do, but even now they are dragging their feet and failing to include everything possible. They should've been doing this in 2003.

Yes, my point exactly. The demand IS there, as it would be in any specialized area of interest. One would have thought they would get their first clue when the initial "pressing" sold out in the first 6 months... 

And on the original theme, in what way does the artist benefit from that $75/disk that Joe Ripoff is selling in the Marketplace? Right.

[karlhenning]

And on the original theme, in what way does the artist benefit from that $75/disk that Joe Ripoff is selling in the Marketplace? Right.

Greased lightning!

[George]

Yes, my point exactly. The demand IS there, as it would be in any specialized area of interest. One would have thought they would get their first clue when the initial "pressing" sold out in the first 6 months... 

I think that although the demand is there in terms of certain folks wanting it, the demand is probably not there in enough quantity for the labels to bother printing the CDs. I don't agree with this, but I think it plays a large part in the reality of the situation. 

An alternative to this is for the labels to make OOP titles available for download as FLAC. Then they wouldn't have to justify the expense of printing the CDs. Why labels haven't already done this is beyond me. If a pimply faced 12 year old can make his FLAC files available to the masses (albeit illegally) then surely the chimpanzees who run the major labels can figure it out.   

[Mark]

There's another interesting point to be made here with regard to Joe Ripoff and his reselling of over-priced CDs, and this is that with P2P, those engaged in it aren't doing it for profit. No monies change hands - it's simply mass proliferation.

Now, illegal though this is with regard to copyrighted material, imagine if it wasn't being done. We'd wind up with a situation where record companies - to save on costs and squeeze out that extra dollar for shareholders - continually ditched unprofitable but artistically worthwhile material from their catalogues until all we're left with is Andrea Bocelli and Bond. With P2P, any recording in the hands of one person can be made available to all interested parties, and thus effectively remain in circulation. And hey, it won't cost the record companies a dime!