composers I want to investigate further

[karlhenning]

. . . After Wagner, no one could pretend like he didn't exist.

Sure, and partly because of the hype (and Wagner was as much hypemeister as maestro), that was true of that age.

But Wagner's been dead for a century and a quarter, and Music has moved on (and the whole "music of the future" wheeze was dated at press-time, anyway).  In our day, Wagner is one of a large number of historical artifacts who have been assimilated into the mix;  you practically need to be a Wagnerrhoid in our day to claim that his music MUST HAVE a vital impact on any composer working now.

A composer today might, of course, find part of his own inspiration in Wagner;  but overall, no, he isn't the towering figure now that he was a hundred years ago.  For most of us, he just doesn't matter all that much; not compared to twenty other, more recent composers.

[Mark G. Simon]

A composer today might, of course, find part of his own inspiration in Wagner;  but overall, no, he isn't the towering figure now that he was a hundred years ago.  For most of us, he just doesn't matter all that much; not compared to twenty other, more recent composers.

That is, Wagner is not as influential as he was 100 years ago. It would have been pretty much impossible to maintain that intensity of influence. 100 years ago it was said that there were more books about Wagner than about any other figure in history, including Jesus.

That doesn't stop Wagner from being a towering composer today.

[karlhenning]

That is, Wagner is not as influential as he was 100 years ago. It would have been pretty much impossible to maintain that intensity of influence. 100 years ago it was said that there were more books about Wagner than about any other figure in history, including Jesus.

That doesn't stop Wagner from being a towering composer today.

Sure.  But then, there's hardly only one tower in the world, is there?

[Mark G. Simon]

Sure.  But then, there's hardly only one tower in the world, is there?

There's Joan. 

[karlhenning]

He's unavoidable.

Oh, none of my composition instructors appeared to think so.  They had me study many scores over years of tuition in the art of composition;  not once while I was in the composition studio, was I assigned a Wagner score to study.  That was an environment in which there was no need to avoid him: he just wasn't there.

[Don]

We could go on and on about Wagner's impact, but I think it's fair to say that he's one of the "big four" composers for opera, the others being Mozart, Verdi and Puccini.

[karlhenning]

Yeah, well that's you and your experience. But I've asked & read-of many musicians (incl.most big name composers) who have a very different relationship, experience & perspective of his music...

That's fine, James.  But my experience is one example indicating that your use of unavoidable here is ill-advised.  Again: Compositionally, Wagner means nothing to me; nor is this a matter of laborious avoidance.  He just doesn't figure.

It's fine if he figures for other composers;  that's their trip.  I will be entitled to my own journey, thank you very much.

[The new erato]

We could go on and on about Wagner's impact, but I think it's fair to say that he's one of the "big four" composers for opera, the others being Mozart, Verdi and Puccini.

What - no Monteverdi? I'd happily change one of your four for him.

[Mark G. Simon]

My experience with Karel Husa was that he never introduced pre-20th century music into his classes. He felt that was for other teachers to teach, and that 20th century composers should be studying 20th century scores. It would be a rare composition class today that had Wagner as a subject of study. But music history surveys and form and anaylsis classes are required of composition students, and it's there that they study Wagner.

My undergraduate teacher, John Boda, spoke of Wagner frequently (he had a picture on his office of himself feeding a swan with the caption "rehearsing the swan for his entrance in Lohengrin"). I could never string four ascending chromatic notes in a row without him saying I must be quoting Tristan.

[Don]

What - no Monteverdi? I'd happily change one of your four for him.

I wasn't talking about what you or I prefer but general popularity.

[karlhenning]

My experience with Karel Husa was that he never introduced pre-20th century music into his classes. He felt that was for other teachers to teach, and that 20th century composers should be studying 20th century scores. It would be a rare composition class today that had Wagner as a subject of study. But music history surveys and form and anaylsis classes are required of composition students, and it's there that they study Wagner.

And in music history surveys, James's adjective unavoidable is just.  Wagner is one of a number of important, and therefore unavoidable, figures (Monteverdi being another, erato).

Apart from Wuorinen in Buffalo (who, actually, did not assign me any score study), each of my composition instructors had me study some piece(s) or other from before the 20th century. (Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherazade and the Chopin Preludes spring to recollection. Hmm, the Beethoven Fourth Symphony, too!)

My undergraduate teacher, John Boda, spoke of Wagner frequently (he had a picture on his office of himself feeding a swan with the caption "rehearsing the swan for his entrance in Lohengrin"). I could never string four ascending chromatic notes in a row without him saying I must be quoting Tristan.

"Pardon me, boys [est-ce que c'est le Tchou-Tchou Tchattanougah?]"

[Don]

It's not just relegated to Opera Don, Wagner's importance & greatness is so much more than that. (as I've stated earlier)

Right, but I was just referring to popularity.

[karlhenning]

Monteverdi, are you serious?

No, of course, not, James. No one who has any opinion at variance with yours could be serious, could he?

[karlhenning]

You would seriously put Monteverdi on the same plain as Bach or Wagner? Gotta say, that's a take I've never heard before.

You have a knack for wilful misreading, James, which makes discussion with you a wearisome prospect.

So . . . where did you study music, and yet learn nothing of Monteverdi?

[Mark G. Simon]

I should add that only a small fraction of what I know about music literature was gained in a classroom. I spent my college years sitting in the music library with recordings and scores of all kinds of music. My first attempt to assimilate the Ring was only partly successful (there's a lot to assimilate). For one thing, I wanted to know what the singers were singing about, and the score I was reading from only had German. So I would read the libretto booklet for the English translation until I got to the indication end of side one. Then I'd listen to side one. Then I'd read the English translation for what happened on side 2, then I'd listen to side 2, etc.  I found Rheingold thoroughly engrossing, but my attention flagged by the time I got to Götterdämmerung. It wasn't until I was out of college that I took the time to take the LPs and listen to side 1 over and over until the music sunk in. Then I'd listen to side 2 over and over until the music sunk in, and so on. By the time I got through Rheingold in this manner I was hooked. Then I went on to Götterdämmerung and discovered that was even greater.

I think any musician, especially an aspiring composer, needs to take it into his/her own hand to become acquainted with a large quantity of music, even that which he thinks he's not going to like (I didn't like Wagner until I decided to delve into him).

[mahler10th]

KANCHELI, WAGNER
Looking into these guys at the moment for very different reasons.
KANCHELI because I'vebeen reading about how explosive he can be, and WAGNER because it's lazyness keeping me from his Operas.

And Rangstrom.

[karlhenning]

I should add that only a small fraction of what I know about music literature was gained in a classroom. . . .

Ditto.  Peculiarly, perhaps, one of the first scores I went to a music library to find was Monteverdi's L'Orfeo . . . at a campus of Fairleigh Dickinson when I was in jr high? High school? Don't remember.

[karlhenning]

John, I owe you thanks for the attempt at restoring the topic!

Langgaard
Holmboe
Berg (still need to dig into Lulu)

[not edward]

Right now, I'm particularly interested in hearing more Tippett. I've been a bit short on listening time of late, but I've really been enjoying the 2nd & 4th symphonies, and the concerto for orchestra.

I see Naxos is doing a cycle of the five quartets: I guess this will be one of my next ports of call.

On the subject of British composers: I'd like to find out if there's any more Arnold that's of the quality of (say) the 5th & 7th symphonies. But that's probably something for another thread.

[karlhenning]

Right now, I'm particularly interested in hearing more Tippett.

Hear, hear.  I went through a phase of initial acquaintance with a small pile of Tippett discs, but I need to go back and visit some more.