Russian attacks over Georgia

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

By the way, speaking of handing out passports - two can play at that game:

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/20492

[ezodisy]

By the way, speaking of handing out passports - two can play at that game:

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/20492

You're an absolute goldmine for interesting websites Bruno. Thanks again.
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VILNIUS-Lithuanian Foreign Ministry Undersecretary Laimonas Talat-Kelpsa and other Lithuanian diplomats arrived in the Georgian city of Gori destroyed and seized by the Russian forces during the armed Russia-Georgia conflict.

The Lithuanian delegation had to cross four control posts to reach Gori.

Russian soldiers guarding the entrance into the city said they would not allow the delegation into Gori but contacted their leadership.

While the Lithuanians were waiting, ambassadors of Germany and Norway arrived at the entrance along with representatives of international organizations and transport with humanitarian assistance.

An hour later, the column of vehicles was allowed into the city.

Talat-Kelpsa told BNS that the inspection at the control post was harsh violation of international documents.

"An alien army in an internationally-recognized territory of Georgia demanded that Lithuanian diplomats produce their documents. A shipment of the United Nations (UN) humanitarian assistance was suspended for an hour. In our opinion, it is also a severe violation of the ceasefire agreement, which suggests that humanitarian assistance should be granted unimpeded access to the conflict zone," said the Lithuanian diplomat.

Gori's pre-war population of approximately 70,000 people is now down what Lithuanian diplomats say is less than 10,000 people.

[Florestan]

By the way, speaking of handing out passports - two can play at that game:

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/20492

The key of the issue is that

The Pechory district was part of the Estonian territory prior to World War II.

Nobody forced that territory down the throat of the Russian government. Quite the contrary, they were only too eager to swallow it. Now they can't complain having a hard diggestion.

Look at it this way: if a country steals territories from each and every neighbouring country --- a sport that Russia has been practicing for centuries ---it is bound to plant ticking bombs that someday will explode in its face.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

The key of the issue is that

The Pechory district was part of the Estonian territory prior to World War II.

I'm not trying to make a point. I just thought it was an interesting case. I read elsewhere that the conscripts from Pskov prefer to serve in the Estonian army because they don't have to get up until 8 AM, and their rec room just got a new pool table. Don't know if it's true though.

You're an absolute goldmine for interesting websites Bruno.

Sid, speaking of interesting websites, you should enjoy this one, in the mentioned city of Gori:

http://www.stalinmuseum.ge/museumeng.html

An excerpt, in the site's charmingly fractured English:

"Exactly in this very city there is a State Museum of an outstanding person J.Stalin, where unique exhibits are collected: memorial things, presents, canvases, photo-film documents etc. Here is kept unique historical stuff connected with that epoch, in which J.Stalin lived and did his social work."

Stalin was a social worker?!? Who knew? 

[Florestan]

I'm not trying to make a point. I just thought it was an interesting case.

It certainly is. And potentially dangerous as well.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

And of course now Poland takes its "revenge".

Watch out for the potato twins! Has one of them been eaten btw?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I thought this article/post on the background to the conflict was really good. It's by Dmitry Orlov, who has a background in Caucasian linguistics:

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/08/trouble-with-georgia.html

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

And further evidence for my contention that the Baltics are not like Ossetia:

http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Business+New+Europe&articleid=a1219391655

[Bunny]

Bunny, have you also failed in your attempts to sell goods to the Russians? Because you are behaving in the same ignorant way as over in the other thread about the Chinese.

Okay Bunny, let's presume you're right, that Russia "have their eyes on the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline which is the only thing standing between Russia and complete control of Caspian Sea oil going to the West." Can you please explain to me then how the Baku-Supsa and CPC pipelines come into this and what Russia will need to do to gain "complete control" over these? Can you also take a moment to explain how Russia will handle such countries as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan to gain "complete control of Caspian Sea oil [and gas]"? If any time remains could you please ever so briefly hint at what Russia might do to persuade the dozen or two multi-national oil and gas companies involved in the region to pack up and leave?

In anticipation of your answers I await with receipt in hand to claim my refund from Russia for faulty ideological goods.

The BTU pipeline is the only source of Caspian Oil flowing to the West, that they do not control. Duh!

Do you think that oil and control of oil is not on the agenda when you invade a country where the only independent pipeline flowing West is running? 

Why don't you try explaining the reasons why Russia cut their oil exports to the Czech republic by 50% the day after the Czech Republic joined signed an agreement to deploy the US Antiballistic Missile Shield? 

Other countries in the region that import significant amounts of both oil and natural gas from Russia, with the oil coming through the Druzhba Pipeline, are particularly concerned that Russia may gradually shift oil exports to the Baltic Pipeline system, which feeds Northern Europe. This would mean that most East European countries would have to pay more for oil because shipment fees would be higher.

Transneft cut supplies in early July, a day after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice signed an accord with her Czech counterpart to deploy part of the Pentagon's antiballistic missile shield on Czech territory. Russia denied then that the decision to cut supplies from a contracted July volume of 500,000 tons to 300,000 tons had been in retaliation for the signing.


How does Poland get most of their oil and natural gas?  I suppose you don't see a connection between the agreement being signed for the same missiles to be deployed in Poland the day before Russia invades Georgia!  Do you think that's merely coincidence?

The Russians use oil to "punish" their former Iron Curtain allies who now seek alliances with the US. This is already proven.  If these countries have oil suppies that are independent of Russian Control (via the BTC Pipeline) then how will Russia exercise its clout in Eastern Europe?  Russia again wants to be THE POWER in Eastern Europe and Western Asia.  Control of Caspian Sea Oil traveling to the West is central to this aim.  They want to be able to set the price and control the supply of that oil so that they can punish any countries that do anything they don't like.    I repeat: Georgia is insignificant of and by itself except for the fact that a pipeline runs through the country.  Without that pipeline, only the establishment of NATO missiles there would make Russia blink.  You can also bet your bottom dollar that this little Russian troop exercise is also being done as a warning to every other former member country of the Warsaw Pact as well as Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. 

If, by some aberration you actually believe that the invasion of Georgia was motivated by a sincere desire to help the people of the region (actually only the Ethnic Russians are benefitting, not ethnic Georgians who are being dispossessed and bombed), then it becomes ugly because it's so similar to Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia to "protect" the ethnic Germans of the Sudetenland.   We all saw how appeasing Hitler worked out.

Just to remind you since your memories seem to be incredibly short:

Warsaw Pact Countries:

    * People's Republic of Albania (left in 1961 as a result of the Sino-Soviet split)
    * People's Republic of Bulgaria
    * Czechoslovak Socialist Republic -- now Czech Republic and Slovakia
    * People's Republic of Hungary
    * People's Republic of Poland
    * Socialist Republic of Romania
    * USSR

Joined later:

     * German Democratic Republic (in 1956) -- reunited with West Germany


What really gets my goat is that you all are so quick to ascribe the motives of GW Bush to lust for oil wealth and power, but can't recognize the same thing when it's being done by someone you need (for some unknown reason) to defend.  War mongering is war mongering, and I don't mind condemning everyone who does it.  But call me prejudiced and ignorant.  It's just so much easier than looking at a duck and calling it a duck when it's walking and quacking like a duck.

[DFO]

If Putin want to restore Russia as a great power
and the "spheres of influence" in Europe, you can't
blame him. It is and always has been Russia politics.
And he's ready to do anything it's necessary to that.
The same as USA.

[Don]

If Putin want to restore Russia as a great power
and the "spheres of influence" in Europe, you can't
blame him. It is and always has been Russia politics.
And he's ready to do anything it's necessary to that.
The same as USA.

Well put.  Both Russia and the USA go around invading other countries.  My fear is that the cold war will get back into high gear.  I haven't given any thought in recent years to a nuclear war between the two countries, but it's on my mind now.

[knight66]

Oh, I think you are safe, it is more likely some third country will catch it.

Mike

[Bunny]

Well put.  Both Russia and the USA go around invading other countries.  My fear is that the cold war will get back into high gear.  I haven't given any thought in recent years to a nuclear war between the two countries, but it's on my mind now.

Exactly my point.  I hated the invasion of Iraq and now I hate the invasion of Georgia.  Both actions are about Oil and Geopolitics and it doesn't take more than ordinary commonsense to see this. 

[Bunny]

Well put.  Both Russia and the USA go around invading other countries.  My fear is that the cold war will get back into high gear.  I haven't given any thought in recent years to a nuclear war between the two countries, but it's on my mind now.

I believe the the Cold War is already back and we have only the ham fisted idiocy of GW Bush and the cold, calculated dedication to power of the new Russian Tsar, V.Putin to blame for this. Thankfully America is getting rid of Bush.  Unfortunately, Putin is in power until he dies, and he looks very, very healthy.

[scarpia]

Exactly my point.  I hated the invasion of Iraq and now I hate the invasion of Georgia.  Both actions are about Oil and Geopolitics and it doesn't take more than ordinary commonsense to see this. 

It is true that the the need to secure supplies or oil makes these regions important, but the invasion of Georgia was precipitated by a direct attack on Russian forces (peacekeepers, as they are euphemistically called) by Georgia.  South Ossetia fought a war against Georgia in 1992 to stay out of Georgia and remain part of Russia.  The US, by emboldening Georgia to make this idiotic move, has given Russia a pretext to assert its military influence in the region.  

[ezodisy]

The BTU pipeline is the only source of Caspian Oil flowing to the West, that they do not control. Duh!

I read through your little harangue, but after reading this first sentence, it is clear that you know absolutely nothing about the situation.

Fist of all, the CPC pipeline, which according to you Russia controls, is, as the name states--Caspian Pipeline Consortium-an international consortium where "three governments and ten companies representing seven countries participate in the project [1]". It is made up of shareholders, many of which, unbelievable as it might seem, are completely independent of Russia. Secondly, the Baku-Supsa pipeline was sponsored by the AIOC (Azerbaijan International Operating Company) which is made up of 10 companies[2], none of which has anything to do with Russia. It's under the operation of BP (British, thank god) and the original construction involved companies from Norway, The Netherlands, Greece and the US[3]. I suppose that the newspapers which you're pilfering from haven't yet mentioned that this pipeline, just like the BTC, runs from Azerbaijan through Georgia, though unlike BTC it ends at the Black Sea. Thirdly, and not at all surprisingly, you are also ignoring the well-nigh inevitable construction of the Trans-Caspian Oil Pipeline which will once again be out of Russian hands. Fourthly, your simplistic speech about "only source...flowing West...that they do not control" completely ignores that all of this oil comes from countries which are not Russian.

Next time try to do some research before you hurl yourself into attack, because as things stand your type is actually much worse than the people you're condemning. I will leave the rest of your points to anyone who wishes to easily dismantle them as I have this.

[1] http://www.cpc.ru/portal/alias!press/lang!en-US/tabID!3357/DesktopDefault.aspx

[2] http://www.bp.com/managedlistingsection.do?categoryId=9007997&contentId=7014999

[3] http://www.hydrocarbons-technology.com/projects/supsa/

[ezodisy]

Bunny, if you'd really like to learn more about the complex situation of pipelines, shippers, operators, shareholders and territory, there is a recently published online article available here on this excellent website which has some good pieces.

The Caspian Pipeline Consortium...remains to this day the only oil export pipeline on Russian territory that is not under the control of the state company Transneft.

[Sarastro]

Our Bunny is a playboy bunny, that's for sure. A blond playboy bunny.

he looks very, very healthy.

I believe you can piss him off to death. Try!

[ezodisy]

Our Bunny is a playboy bunny, that's for sure. A blond playboy bunny.

well if that's true then I take back everything I said and will do my best to undress, er, address the matter at hand 

I actually agree with some of what bunny says, it's just the avoidance of facts and concomitant manipulation which annoys me. Some of the conclusions bunny reached are factually impossible without an all-out war.

[Sarastro]

I actually agree with some of what bunny says.

I also agree with some things, but because it is just hard to disagree that the Earth revolves round the Sun, if you know what I mean.