Author Topic: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?  (Read 4108 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

imperfection

  • Guest
Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« on: September 10, 2008, 09:01:48 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RYSkquH56g&fmt=18

This is just disservice to Beethoven, humiliation to the audience and embarrassment to the performers themselves...


Offline Est.1965

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3898
  • Havergal Brian wrote two symphonies in 1965
  • Location: Clydebank, Scotland
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 06:09:19 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RYSkquH56g&fmt=18

This is just disservice to Beethoven, humiliation to the audience and embarrassment to the performers themselves...




Ludwig van Beethoven: Egmont Overture
Lim Kek-tjiang conducts Evergreen Symphony Orchestra

Oh my.  This hasn't been rehearsed at all.  Thank you for posting this.  What are the extra notes here and there (someone  in both woodwind and brass.)?  What is the fluctuationg tempo about?  It is uneven, out of synch, and there's someone in the brass section who isn't getting it right at all!  Timpani doesn't seem to meet the orchestra at the right moments near the end and the orchestral balance throughout is slayed. I agree about this performance.  Awful.  Are the ESO ameteurs?

If anyone listens to it, hear the Overture above it in Youtube for comparison (Beethoven: Egmont Overture Leonard Bernstein, VPO).  Thats more like it!
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline sound67

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 710
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 07:05:18 AM »
No, they're not amateurs. Quick googling reveals them to be a Taiwanese orchestra comprised of grad music students.

http://www.orchestra.evergreen.com.tw/eintroduction.htm

You can also hear them in many other youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afUFvbVwq-I

And I've heard worse, much worse (e.g. the "Owensboro" and "Altoona" Symphony Orchestras playing Arnold Rosner - Ouch!)

Thomas
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 07:10:54 AM by sound67 »
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Gustav

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 07:14:29 AM »
the cellos messed up at 4:40, but for a orchestra comprised of students, it's neither too good or too bad. I must say though, that the timpanist seemed especially fired up for some reason, i wish the rest of the orchestra could be more like him.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 07:16:40 AM by Gustav »

imperfection

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 05:05:32 PM »

Ludwig van Beethoven: Egmont Overture
Lim Kek-tjiang conducts Evergreen Symphony Orchestra

Oh my.  This hasn't been rehearsed at all.  Thank you for posting this.  What are the extra notes here and there (someone  in both woodwind and brass.)?  What is the fluctuationg tempo about?  It is uneven, out of synch, and there's someone in the brass section who isn't getting it right at all!  Timpani doesn't seem to meet the orchestra at the right moments near the end and the orchestral balance throughout is slayed. I agree about this performance.  Awful.  Are the ESO ameteurs?

If anyone listens to it, hear the Overture above it in Youtube for comparison (Beethoven: Egmont Overture Leonard Bernstein, VPO).  Thats more like it!

No, they are one of the professional symphony orchestras in Taiwan......and I agree with you, the Bernstein video happened to be the one I watched immediately after the ESO one, and good god, what gargantuan difference in style and blend and intensity.


eyeresist

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 06:51:01 PM »
Maybe it's an Historically Informed Performance?  $:)  ;)

Gustav

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 09:27:33 PM »
No, they are one of the professional symphony orchestras in Taiwan......and I agree with you, the Bernstein video happened to be the one I watched immediately after the ESO one, and good god, what gargantuan difference in style and blend and intensity.



maybe you should stop comparing Bernstein with some unkonwn Taiwanese orchestra? What's the point, they suck? There is a reason they are not famous, you know.

Offline sound67

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 710
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2008, 01:13:29 AM »
Yeah, to compare a Taiwanese orchestra of grad students with the Bernstein recordings one must be completely daft.  ;D

Their Sibelius "Finlandia" certainly isn't bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afUFvbVwq-I

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

imperfection

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2008, 08:05:29 AM »
I'm just saying that I am amazed with the musicality (or lack thereof) displayed by the respective videos.

Gustav

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2008, 08:17:25 AM »
I'm just saying that I am amazed with the musicality (or lack thereof) displayed by the respective videos.
if you wish to be amazed by more mediocrity, this video featuring a middle school orchestra make the ESO look like the WP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQOumtTnCWI

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008, 09:07:49 AM »
if you wish to be amazed by more mediocrity, this video featuring a middle school orchestra make the ESO look like the WP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQOumtTnCWI

You guys are missing the point completely, which is the value of making music for one's self. Of course these groups aren't the VPO or BSO; to paraphrase Brahms, any fool can see that. But not so many decades ago, before the widespread availability of recordings, amateurs often made music for themselves by playing in small chamber groups or reading 4-hand arrangements of symphonies. I applaud any group where people put bows in their own hands and mouthpieces to their own mouths rather than getting up to put another disc in the CD player. I've played Beethoven sonatas for myself for years quite badly, which no doubt for "imperfection" would constitute "disservice to Beethoven, humiliation to the audience and embarrassment to the performer [himself]." I assure "imperfection" it is none of these things. However "imperfect" my performances, they involve me actively in making music, just as these young people are experiencing the chance to make music for themselves first-hand. I wish I could find an on-line copy of EM Forster's essay "Not Listening to Music," where he concludes by saying that although his piano-playing worsens yearly, he will never give it up. Forster concludes (and I misquote from memory), "People should play for themselves; it will teach them better to listen."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Gustav

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 10:17:55 AM »
Of course these groups aren't the VPO or BSO; to paraphrase Brahms, any fool can see that. But not so many decades ago, before the widespread availability of recordings, amateurs often made music for themselves by playing in small chamber groups or reading 4-hand arrangements of symphonies. I applaud any group where people put bows in their own hands and mouthpieces to their own mouths rather than getting up to put another disc in the CD player. I've played Beethoven sonatas for myself for years quite badly, which no doubt for "imperfection" would constitute "disservice to Beethoven, humiliation to the audience and embarrassment to the performer [himself]." I assure "imperfection" it is none of these things. However "imperfect" my performances, they involve me actively in making music, just as these young people are experiencing the chance to make music for themselves first-hand. I wish I could find an on-line copy of EM Forster's essay "Not Listening to Music," where he concludes by saying that although his piano-playing worsens yearly, he will never give it up. Forster concludes (and I misquote from memory), "People should play for themselves; it will teach them better to listen."

I understand your point, but I was never against these young people playing the music they do. In fact i support it. The problem is the OP, who compares them with seasoned professionals, and criticizing them.

You guys are missing the point completely,
So, since the OP didn't make your point ("young people should play for themselves") which i agree, how can I be missing it?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 10:20:15 AM by Gustav »

greg

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 10:32:07 AM »
if you wish to be amazed by more mediocrity, this video featuring a middle school orchestra make the ESO look like the WP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQOumtTnCWI
don't expect much when they spell it as "Sherzo" at beginning of the video.  ;D

Offline (poco) Sforzando

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5588
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 11:53:34 AM »
I understand your point, but I was never against these young people playing the music they do. In fact i support it. The problem is the OP, who compares them with seasoned professionals, and criticizing them.
So, since the OP didn't make your point ("young people should play for themselves") which i agree, how can I be missing it?


"You guys" is plural. If the shoe fits, wear it; if not, don't.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Est.1965

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3898
  • Havergal Brian wrote two symphonies in 1965
  • Location: Clydebank, Scotland
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 11:59:28 AM »
Yeah, to compare a Taiwanese orchestra of grad students with the Bernstein recordings one must be completely daft.  ;D

Their Sibelius "Finlandia" certainly isn't bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afUFvbVwq-I

Thomas

I like being daft.  But there are certain standards one must meet before a performance of this kind can be deemed acceptable.
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

imperfection

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2008, 06:21:12 PM »
I understand your point, but I was never against these young people playing the music they do. In fact i support it. The problem is the OP, who compares them with seasoned professionals, and criticizing them.
So, since the OP didn't make your point ("young people should play for themselves") which i agree, how can I be missing it?


I don't see your point. The ESO is a professional orchestra, so obviously I can compare it with any other professional orchestra. They do sound really bad comparing with the VPO, and I'm just saying how amazed of the differences I was when I first saw the two videos. That does not mean I look down on the ESO or any other not-so-good-self-claimed-professional orchestras out there.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to generate arguments in this thread in the first place...just trying to share a video. Hope you weren't angry of my behaviour  :)

Gustav

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2008, 07:07:54 PM »
I don't see your point. The ESO is a professional orchestra, so obviously I can compare it with any other professional orchestra. They do sound really bad comparing with the VPO, and I'm just saying how amazed of the differences I was when I first saw the two videos. That does not mean I look down on the ESO or any other not-so-good-self-claimed-professional orchestras out there.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to generate arguments in this thread in the first place...just trying to share a video. Hope you weren't angry of my behaviour  :)

First of all, I don't get angry over stuff i see on internet forums ;). because if i do, i would've had many heart attacks. So, it doesn't really matter what people say, but hey, if you want to compare orchestras, fine, compare away. But, do bear in mind that, once you post your thoughts on a public forum, you'll get replies, and sometimes, they aren't very nice. But, that's just life, isn't it? It is because of the diversity of thought that we have progress, so it's a positive thing. 

I don't really think there is much point in comparing WP to ESO, since they are not the same caliber orchestras, it's like saying "lebron James can kick your ass in Basketball!", a 3 year old knows that. It's more interesting to say that Lebron James can score on Kobe Bryant on a 1 on 1 match up, now that's interesting.

Plus, music/musical performance is not something that you can quantitatively say "A is better than B". Perhaps in certain aspects, like technical mastery, one can safely assume that ESO is less competent than some of the big European orchestras; but if you look it from another angle, say within the confines of Taiwan, they might be a top notch orchestra. It all depends on how you look at it, you know.

imperfection

  • Guest
Re: Has anyone heard this bad an Egmont overture?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2008, 11:39:54 AM »
First of all, I don't get angry over stuff i see on internet forums ;). because if i do, i would've had many heart attacks. So, it doesn't really matter what people say, but hey, if you want to compare orchestras, fine, compare away. But, do bear in mind that, once you post your thoughts on a public forum, you'll get replies, and sometimes, they aren't very nice. But, that's just life, isn't it? It is because of the diversity of thought that we have progress, so it's a positive thing. 

I don't really think there is much point in comparing WP to ESO, since they are not the same caliber orchestras, it's like saying "lebron James can kick your ass in Basketball!", a 3 year old knows that. It's more interesting to say that Lebron James can score on Kobe Bryant on a 1 on 1 match up, now that's interesting.

Plus, music/musical performance is not something that you can quantitatively say "A is better than B". Perhaps in certain aspects, like technical mastery, one can safely assume that ESO is less competent than some of the big European orchestras; but if you look it from another angle, say within the confines of Taiwan, they might be a top notch orchestra. It all depends on how you look at it, you know.

Nicely put, thanks!  :)