Shostakovich String Quartets

[George]

I think it is time for a death match project for all your sets, Sarge! 

My money's on Borodin I.

[Brahmsian]

My money's on Borodin I.

Well, I know that's the one you would pick, George! 

[Brahmsian]

Man are you over-thinking this.

Soapy, you DO realize you are talking to Snyprrr?   

[Karl Henning]

Oh, thank goodness I had just swallowed my coffee!

[Sergeant Rock]

I think it is time for a death match project for all your sets, Sarge! 

If only life were long enough 

Sarge

[George]

If only life were long enough 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

I'm speaking on Karl's behalf, I realize.  He listens to the Emerson's set often.

Nor did you speak at all out of turn, Ray.

snypsss, of my several sets, the Emerson's is the one which rests under my pillow when I lay me down.

[snyprrr]

Nor did you speak at all out of turn, Ray.

snypsss, of my several sets, the Emerson's is the one which rests under my pillow when I lay me down.

oh kaaay... I'm shaking my head, mm mm mm

(you probably club little baby Russian String Quartets to death for breakfast)

I have Mandelring, Emerson, Borodin I (with the Beethoven filling in the missing 14 and 15), Borodin II (the Bovine ), Fitzwilliam, Pacifica and Rubio (which I play when I want to hear the sheer beauty of Shostakovich...and yes, they often produce breathtaking sounds). Plus Sorrel 8, 9, 13. But I can't really help you because I haven't done a quartet by quartet comparison of those seven cycles. I just enjoy what I'm currently hearing without much reference to, or worry about what I'm not hearing.

Sarge

you're speaking to me again!! yaaaay!!



Frankly, I'd just like a direct compare of the Mandelring and Pacifica.

So, you like the Rubio? Out of all the samples, theirs seemed to have some funny sound stuff or sumptin...hmm? Don't remember...

[Karl Henning]

I never go clubbing before breakfast.

[snyprrr]

Well, I found a copy of the Erato-Ultima set with the Borodin and Leonskaja... which ALSO includes the Borodin's Teldec recording of SQs 1 and 15! Yes... isn't that interesting? And guess what? Their 15th's first movement is 13 1/2 minutes! Wow- that's a minute and half longer than the next longest. Can't wait! Anyone else have this?

So, the Borodin Mach 3 looks like this:   1, 2, 3.... 7, 8..... 12.... 15

The point is not to narrow down an end result but begin a process of discovery.

I never go clubbing before breakfast.

You say that now

btw- did you read my Jansons 13 rave in the other Thread? good times!

I thought that's what I was saying?

Oh, but btw Mr. Fancy Pants- I'm running out of DSCHDollars.... QUICKLY!!!... there won't be any more discovering... unless I discover my bill...

[Sergeant Rock]

you're speaking to me again!! yaaaay!!

In some threads, yes 

Frankly, I'd just like a direct compare of the Mandelring and Pacifica.

That's still a lot of comparison--if I wanted to do it right. I could do the 30 second clip comparison, like you and paulb have perfected, but I'm not sure what that would tell us.

So, you like the Rubio? Out of all the samples, theirs seemed to have some funny sound stuff or sumptin...hmm? Don't remember...

I'm listening to Rubio's 3 right now. I don't hear the funny stuff. If you could elaborate, tell me what you find objectionable from the samples you heard, I could try to confirm or deny. I can tell you that Todd (who collects Shosty Quartets) became incensed when I mentioned liking Rubio, He thought I was crazy    Interpretively, they rather downplay the biting sarcasm and the pain; they play nice. You could even say, I suppose, they are not idiomatic.

Sarge

[snyprrr]

In some threads, yes 

That's still a lot of comparison--if I wanted to do it right. I could do the 30 second clip comparison, like you and paulb have perfected, but I'm not sure what that would tell us.

I'm listening to Rubio's 3 right now. I don't hear the funny stuff. If you could elaborate, tell me what you find objectionable from the samples you heard, I could try to confirm or deny. I can tell you that Todd (who collects Shosty Quartets) became incensed when I mentioned liking Rubio, He thought I was crazy    Interpretively, they rather downplay the biting sarcasm and the pain; they play nice. You could even say, I suppose, they are not idiomatic.

Sarge

You know i enjoy your company!


Anyhow, we all have a lot of work to do! For all, may I suggest a route of comparison?

1) skip No.1 for now

2) 2 + 3 as a pair

3) 4-6

4) 7-8, 9-10

5) 11 by itself

6) 12 by itself... and so on...


For PURE SOUND, compare the more delicate SQs 4-6, and for TECHNICAL compare 11 and 15, and for ANGST compare 12-14.


When listening to samples, it's always nice if the sample occurs during a crucial part of the movement- really, that's all we've got to go on. If the sample is in a grey-area, well, it doesn't do much good. However, quick compares of ten different things will at least give you certain indications, especially with sonics. I just believe that if you listen to 30 samples, and you know how to "read" these things, you can expertly critique (in, yes, an Assuming and Arrogant Way!) what you're looking for. If there's a crucial tempo, and you can hear on the sample if it's too fast or slow, hey, that beats buying it to find our, eh?

(caffeine kicking in- will.stop.now.)


SQ No.12- Borodin 1- wow, the longest timing for the second movement, very nice- could be a FirstChoice

                 Borodin 2- didn't hear, but remember it being very nice

                 Borodin 3- much shorter than 1, but still in the 'longer' category; sound is Western, though the Borodin sound just as good in Melodiya sound


(just.stop.typing.)

[snyprrr]

No.12

This must be one of the rarer on record. There are few one-offs, but, one must think that if a group decides to record it, hopefully they plan to do it justice. I saw the Amati on Divox and the Philharmonia on Thorophon,... along with the Borodin3 on Virgin. I didn't see much else. Let's look at some stats:

Mvmt 1:

6:16 (Amati) - 8:00 (Shostakovich)

Some go for the quicker tempo, but many prefer to luxuriate in this most wonderful tapestry. The Sorrel are right behind the Shostakovich; the Emerson are right behinf the Amati. In general, the tempo is not much of an indicator here, as all are trying their best here. Acoustic would be more important, and most that I heard were similarly pleasing.

Mvmt 2:

18:47 (Beethoven, St, Petersburg, Amati) - 22:03 (Danel- with Sorrel, Borodin1, and Brodsky not far behind)

Wow! There's some fluctuation there! I don't know what's causing it- it's hard when you have a "mixed tempo movement", though, one has to assume that the slow parts are being taken slower (though, the 'Allegretto' section sees its share too). Still, "nuance" seems to be the indicator here, not tempo (again). The sample I heard from the Philharmonia/Thorophon really turned me on, but it was from a different section of the music than the other samples so I don't know if they all do the same thing (they is a "fluttering" of strings that sounded really niiice).


I was most impressed with the Borodin1 and Sorrel samples; Philharmonia sounded very nice- perhaps the Mandelring and Pacifica sounded too nice? (one really needs some DEATH in this piece- some '70s analogue 'grit' or something- 12 should not be 'pristine'). This is a piece of music where I'd probably go with one of The Masters (Beethoven, Taneyev, Borodin 1/2, Shostakovich) simply because of the time and place and sound and zeitgeist. I do believe that the Shostakovich won my late-'90s DeathMatch.



Anyhow, the Hagen didn't do 12. No Kremer. It's not a piece that has caught on like wildfire. I say it belongs to The Masters. I'd recommend either Borodin1 or the Shostakovich. (haven't heard Taneyev- Beethoven might suffer from the sound- can't remember Borodin2-Bovine (Borodin3 on its way))

[Jay F]

I'm now listening to the Fitzwilliams' #12. I'm also reading Tom Rob Smith's Agent 6 this week, so I'm feeling steeped in Sovietude. The first movement is as sad, or full of anxiety, as Leo Demidov's life.

ETA: Now I've listened to both movements by both the Emersons and the Fitzwilliams. The second movement is full of noirish movie music: the thing the protagonist most fears has come to pass. I become particularly nailed to my chair at 13:35 in the Emersons' second movement. I like this SQ, and am glad to be able to identify one by number. Since I bought two entire box sets at once, I'm hardly ever clear on which SQ I'm listening to. I like them all, and I like both the Emersons' and the Fitzwilliams' versions. I can't tell one from the other, really, since I'm listening at my computer.

ETA: the Fitzwilliams are drawing me in at the end of the first movement. So sad. So nervous. Such anxiety. God, I love this. Thanks for isolating it today, snypppr.

[snyprrr]

I'm now listening to the Fitzwilliams' #12. I'm also reading Tom Rob Smith's Agent 6 this week, so I'm feeling steeped in Sovietude. The first movement is as sad, or full of anxiety, as Leo Demidov's life.

ETA: Now I've listened to both movements by both the Emersons and the Fitzwilliams. The second movement is full of noirish movie music: the thing the protagonist most fears has come to pass. I become particularly nailed to my chair at 13:35 in the Emersons' second movement. I like this SQ, and am glad to be able to identify one by number. Since I bought two entire box sets at once, I'm hardly ever clear on which SQ I'm listening to. I like them all, and I like both the Emersons' and the Fitzwilliams' versions. I can't tell one from the other, really, since I'm listening at my computer.

ETA: the Fitzwilliams are drawing me in at the end of the first movement. So sad. So nervous. Such anxiety. God, I love this. Thanks for isolating it today, snypppr.

Thanks! In a way, it's kind of 'isolated' itself, but so is the 11th,... 13th... things just get really 'Individual' with these Last Quartets, one MUST take them slowly, one by one. DID YOU HEAR the 'fluttering' section in the second movement? palpitations?

(however, I just know you're trolling the Emerson to sic Karl on me! haha)- seriously, "you have to hand it to the Emerson", but I still get upset when people get their set over others. Maybe I'm just playing Devil's Advocate- they're like the "Hollywood Choice" and I'm always rooting for the BoltOutoftheBlue?

As I recall-

EMERSON GOOD: 1, 7, 9?, 8?, 11, 12

EMERSON BAD: 4, 5, 6?, (I've always used the Manhattan Standard for 4-5, though i'm currently seeking replacements; 6 I think Sorrel & Brodsky)

EMERSON, EH: 13?, 14?, 15?, 2?, 3?, 8?


Maybe I just don't like them in any of the folk-flavoured stuff? I seem to like them in the more Abstract stuff? SOME say there's nothing missing in the Emerson Cycle, but  but... but... oh, it's no use,

As to the Fitzzies- no one has ever said which of the 15 they are particularly known for, or which their approach works best with, but I have noted 5 (too aggressive for me?) and 6 (verrry dark, like a Romantic Novel, do check it out- very darkly toned version). But I keep confusing them with the Lindsays. fsr.

[snyprrr]

"Back in the Day"

Manhattan 1/2/3
                  4/5          4 and 5 went to the Manhattan. I do love that record, but I'd like to replace it (5 may be the most difficult of all to find)
                5/7/8
                9/10
               11/12/13

Brodsky 6/10/14        I always thought their 6 to be the best I'd heard, and, quite frankly, I believe their 10 beat the Russians (though maybe a tie with 'Shos')
              7/8/9           Their incisive attack is well featured on these most biting works.
             11/12/13      I think their 11 might have beat the Russians- but not 12 or 13, surely as fine as they are
              15

Borodin EMI 1/9/12      Either Borodin or Shostakovich took 12; I believe Borodin kicked ass in 9?
                   10/13/14   Again, it was either the Borodin or Shostakovich in 13 and 14

Shostakovich/Olympia 10/11/15    I THINK they took the 10th, and I'm supposing the 15th
                                   12/13/14   They also won out in... I think the 12th most definitely (you should hear it)... maybe 14 too?

Beethoven/Consonance  12/13/14     I can't quite recall their profile,... it's not saying much that I can't remember...

Taneyev (maybe limited expsure?)       I wish I could recall here, but no

Fitzwilliam (maybe limited exposure)      I might have sampled their 4 or 5 - but I think they might be a little aggressive in those particularly.

Emerson Cycle      (it was the last to go after everything had been sold- it was a promo- abused- yea, Karl, I'd have been nice to have around... I guess )


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Now"

No.1..........................................Borodin3/Teldec (default)*

Nos.2-3.....................................Borodin3/Virgin*         Moyzes (2*)     St.P/SONY (3)*                                    2 and 3 are my least favoured-nothing personal

No.4..........................................Manhattan, Moyzes                  (Hagen?)

No.5..........................................Manhattan                                         St.P/SONY                                           4-7 are my most favoured- any fav 5s?

No.6..........................................Sorrel, Brodsky


No.7......................................... Borodin3/Virgin, Sorrel, Brodsky (it's very popular on record- 3/7/8 is the favoured programme)
No.8......................................... Borodin3/Virgin*, Sorrel, Brodsky

No.9......................................... Brodsky, Sorrel                                                                         I like 7-10 for their unity of expression, abstract, mystery motto
No.10....................................... Brodsky, Sorrel

No.11....................................... Vogler/RCA (w/Debussy, Janacek!)                                                11 is like no other (15?) any personal favs here?

No.12....................................... Borodin3/Virgin,  Amati/Divox                                                (still like Shostakovich here, and now Sorrel... rare on record)

No.13....................................... Kremer/ECM,                           Sorrel ( by default)*

No. 14...................................... Kremer/ECM,                           Brodsky (by default)*


No.15....................................... Borodin3/Teldec                 Kremer, Daniels, Kashkashian, Ma                  (I liked the St.P samples here- I'd like some help)

[snyprrr]

I'm now listening to the Fitzwilliams' #12. I'm also reading Tom Rob Smith's Agent 6 this week, so I'm feeling steeped in Sovietude. The first movement is as sad, or full of anxiety, as Leo Demidov's life.

ETA: Now I've listened to both movements by both the Emersons and the Fitzwilliams. The second movement is full of noirish movie music: the thing the protagonist most fears has come to pass. I become particularly nailed to my chair at 13:35 in the Emersons' second movement. I like this SQ, and am glad to be able to identify one by number. Since I bought two entire box sets at once, I'm hardly ever clear on which SQ I'm listening to. I like them all, and I like both the Emersons' and the Fitzwilliams' versions. I can't tell one from the other, really, since I'm listening at my computer.

ETA: the Fitzwilliams are drawing me in at the end of the first movement. So sad. So nervous. Such anxiety. God, I love this. Thanks for isolating it today, snypppr.

I don't know where you are in your listening. If you're still confused, the next one you should try is No. 7 Op.108. I'll Post below:

[snyprrr]

String Quartet no.7 Op.108

Who doesn't love this little gem? It's like Shosty's gift to the under 15min. crowd! And the opening simply appears to be the most original thing one has ever heard, and so cool,... pensive, maybe paranoid, definitely Spy Thriller! Once you've heard it, how could you ever mistake it?

The 2nd movement continues as as inverse/obverse of the first, being a highly mysterious 'Lento', certainly very elusive and flit. This leads to the concluding barmburner, which, I have to ask, Is this really the first totally brutal fast movement in DSCH SQs?

So, if someone is unsure of where to begin exploring, No.7 makes it easy. Surely,- is there anyone to whom this work is NOT one of their absolute favourites? I just heard the St.P/SONY recording, and it was highly highly impressive, maybe the quickest on record.

[Karl Henning]

It's a beauty. Was probably the first (after the Op.110, of course) whose profile imprinted on my memory.

[amw]

The 2nd movement continues as as inverse/obverse of the first, being a highly mysterious 'Lento', certainly very elusive and flit. This leads to the concluding barmburner, which, I have to ask, Is this really the first totally brutal fast movement in DSCH SQs?

The Allegro non troppo from No. 3 predates it (and was probably the template for the famous scherzo of the 10th symphony)

No. 7's Allegro is brutal for a while, but relaxes into a recap of the first movement at the end. A violent ending would be uncalled for as this quartet was dedicated to the memory of his first wife.

(No. 3 was a template for the later quartets in many ways actually. For instance he apparently liked the ending so much he "recycled" it in Nos. 4, 5, 10, 11, 14, along with the 8th, 13th and 15th symphonies [towards the end they started incorporating elements from the similar conclusion of the 4th symphony as well].)