Author Topic: Film (movie) Music  (Read 177604 times)

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Offline pjme

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1260 on: April 07, 2021, 12:28:56 AM »
An atmospheric fragment from "Logan's run". I don't know if Goldsmith is the orchestrator, but I like the use of individual instruments (flutes, bassoon, trumpet) , the low brass and subtle percussion. Primeval Copland -wide -open -spaces with a hint of Stravinskian spring...?

Lovers of early synthesizer/electronics use are spoiled aswell : https://youtu.be/OxBUTjF0gyY

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM</a>
The monument

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1261 on: April 07, 2021, 02:32:05 AM »

Cheers Jeffrey. It is very easy to spend other peoples' money so let us withhold any gratitude until you receive the product and can appraise its quality.



The geography of these islands has changed since Brexit. This is due to the fact of the many, many hoards of English people suddenly realized that they had Irish connections and are thus eligible for an Irish passport.  ;D
Well Fergus - it can't possibly be as warped as my last, unplayable, copy! We know a number of people, subsequent to Brexit, who have applied for Irish passports. My daughter would love an EU passport to allow her to work in the EU but, sadly AFAIK, we don't have any Irish relatives - but we do have Dutch ones - so maybe there is some hope for us!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline aligreto

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1262 on: April 07, 2021, 04:52:25 AM »
Well Fergus - it can't possibly be as warped as my last, unplayable, copy!

Hopefully this one will work out better for you, Jeffrey.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline relm1

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1263 on: April 07, 2021, 05:01:46 AM »
An atmospheric fragment from "Logan's run". I don't know if Goldsmith is the orchestrator, but I like the use of individual instruments (flutes, bassoon, trumpet) , the low brass and subtle percussion. Primeval Copland -wide -open -spaces with a hint of Stravinskian spring...?

Lovers of early synthesizer/electronics use are spoiled aswell : https://youtu.be/OxBUTjF0gyY

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM</a>
The monument

I hear a lot more of Stravinsky in here.  I love 70's Goldsmith more than 80's Goldsmith.  Alot of innovation and exotic percussion.  I knew his percussionist who worked on all scores from the 1960's till Goldsmith's death.  A very lovely man who collected percussive instruments as he traveled the world.  His collection is what's heard in Planet of the Apes and no doubt this score as well.  Sadly, he died a year or two ago.  Much of these instruments are primitive African hand made instruments which works well for those sci-fi scores of the 60's and 70's.  Jerry didn't do his own orchestrations but indicated the weird sounds he was looking for in the short score.  This one in addition to having a usual concert orchestra also used an alto flute, and interestingly, strings but no double basses. 

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1264 on: April 07, 2021, 05:04:03 AM »
Hopefully this one will work out better for you, Jeffrey.
Thanks Fergus.
I've just had to order a new CD and DVD player as they have both packed up in sympathy with each other.  >:(
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline aligreto

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1265 on: April 07, 2021, 05:11:24 AM »

I've just had to order a new CD and DVD player as they have both packed up in sympathy with each other.  >:(

Coincidental bad timing there Jeffrey. You may as well order a new set of speakers and an amp while you are at it just to upgrade your whole system in one fell swoop  ;D
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline Cato

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1266 on: April 07, 2021, 05:42:32 AM »
I hear a lot more of Stravinsky in here.  I love 70's Goldsmith more than 80's Goldsmith.  Alot of innovation and exotic percussion.  I knew his percussionist who worked on all scores from the 1960's till Goldsmith's death.  A very lovely man who collected percussive instruments as he traveled the world.  His collection is what's heard in Planet of the Apes and no doubt this score as well.  Sadly, he died a year or two ago.  Much of these instruments are primitive African hand made instruments which works well for those sci-fi scores of the 60's and 70's.  Jerry didn't do his own orchestrations but indicated the weird sounds he was looking for in the short score.  This one in addition to having a usual concert orchestra also used an alto flute, and interestingly, strings but no double basses.

Arthur Morton is credited with orchestrating a good number of Goldsmith's scores for c. 30 years.

Quote


"...The relationship between a composer and orchestrator is complex and can operate at many different levels. Little is known publicly about the Goldsmith/Morton relationship.

According to Paul Andrew McLean (Film Score Monthly):

“A composer like Jerry Goldsmith, ‘sketches’ his cues, every creative detail is provided in these sketches - instrumental groupings, dynamics, and indications for all the notes. It is just written in a kind of compressed ‘shorthand’, perhaps with some occasional verbal instructions.”

Also, Arthur Morton once said that his job in orchestrating for Jerry Goldsmith was very straightforward:

“I take the music from the yellow paper and put it on the white paper.”

So, should we believe that Arthur Morton was nothing more than Jerry Goldsmith’s copyist as these anecdotes imply? The fact that Arthur Morton, himself a prolific composer, was willing to orchestrate almost exclusively for Jerry Goldsmith for over 30 years, and is credited in all of the earlier Jerry Goldsmith scores, would imply that the relationship went much deeper.

When talking about The Omen underscore Jerry Goldsmith recalled:

"At least 65% of the choral writing was arranged by Arthur … he opened it up in a way that sounded much better than the way I wrote it."

While the music is pure Goldsmith, when we thrill to the impact of the choral sections of The Omen, let us at least spare a thought for Arthur Morton, orchestrator.


From an interesting article:

http://www.jerrygoldsmithonline.com/spotlight_arthur_morton.htm

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Offline relm1

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1267 on: April 07, 2021, 07:23:15 AM »
Arthur Morton is credited with orchestrating a good number of Goldsmith's scores for c. 30 years.

From an interesting article:

http://www.jerrygoldsmithonline.com/spotlight_arthur_morton.htm

Yes, with great composers like John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith - they use orchestrators but only do this for practical reasons.  They can and do their own orchestrations when time allows for it but they generally have very limited time to complete a score.  The massive two hour score for The Empire Strikes Back for example was composed in about 6 weeks including orchestrations.  That requires these composers to write about 2 minutes of completed orchestral music per day, every day to make there schedules.  It was the same with Max Steiner, Franz Waxman, Alfred Newman, etc.  All used orchestrators to handle the volume of workload but their sketches are extremely detailed, all instrumental and voicing decisions are still made by the composer, they just write in a sort of short hand to get it done fast.  I orchestrate professionally and have reviewed these orchestral sketches and am very surprised how detailed they are but someone who doesn't know what they are looking at might consider the sketches to leave much to the orchestrator.  That is rarely the case with the old generation of composers.  Modern film composers, that's a bit of a different story where the orchestrator can sometimes be an arranger and co-composer.  For example, in a John Williams short score, every note, voicing, instrumental detail including the ornaments, percussion, dynamics, etc., are indicated.  Even a harp gliss, he'll write out all the notes rather than just say "+harp" where the orchestrator will already know the harmony, can easily determine what notes should be in that gliss.   Because of this, John Williams' orchestrator considers themselves more of an editor than an orchestrator.  The same with Goldsmith and Arthur Morton.  I've just studied "Star Trek The Motion Picture" and have the full score and sketches and again, the sketches are elaborate and contain most details but an example where the composer might not fully know is with synths or exotic percussion where they'll sit with the player and determine the right sound they want to use.

Offline aligreto

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1268 on: April 07, 2021, 08:32:23 AM »
The soundtrack to the film Che!


It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1269 on: April 07, 2021, 08:58:48 AM »
Coincidental bad timing there Jeffrey. You may as well order a new set of speakers and an amp while you are at it just to upgrade your whole system in one fell swoop  ;D
;D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline pjme

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1270 on: April 07, 2021, 09:53:30 AM »
Yes, with great composers like John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith - they use orchestrators but only do this for practical reasons.
many thanks Relm and Cato for the information.
On the internet I found this : http://www.movie-wave.net/titles/logans_run.html
It sums up my feelings aswell. I saw Logan's run probably soon after its release and can remember the impact of those orchestral contributions, especially The monument:
"Brilliant though those (electronic) sections are, it is the music for the exterior scenes that is the most astonishing. This begins with "The Sun", where the love theme is presented as a fanfare (the full orchestra is heard for the first time in the film - or on the album) for the rising sun, the first time the movie's two protagonists have seen it out of doors. This then gives way to a ferocious action cue as they must resume their escape attempt. What follows this is absolutely, unquestionably one of the finest pieces of music ever written for film: "The Monument" is a lengthy (eight-minute), impressionistic piece. It opens with a motif that Goldsmith would later use as the basis for his score for Islands in the Stream (another of his very best works) before the score's most beautiful arrangement of the love theme for flute, harp and strings. A lively, evocative section follows, shortly making way for another version of the love theme. Then the characters discovered an abandoned city: we know it as Washington DC and Goldsmith launches into warm Americana. The cue finally ends with horn glissandos lending an air of mystery. If ever a single cue made a film score an essential purchase, it is "The Monument": whatever you think of the electronics in the album's first half, if you fail to be impressed by "The Monument" then you probably shouldn't be listening to film music. (The slightly anaemic recording by Goldsmith on a later compilation doesn't quite sum up the majesty and brilliance of the cue.)"

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1271 on: April 07, 2021, 11:49:43 AM »
An atmospheric fragment from "Logan's run". I don't know if Goldsmith is the orchestrator, but I like the use of individual instruments (flutes, bassoon, trumpet) , the low brass and subtle percussion. Primeval Copland -wide -open -spaces with a hint of Stravinskian spring...?

Lovers of early synthesizer/electronics use are spoiled aswell : https://youtu.be/OxBUTjF0gyY

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3n4Rdnzf1yM</a>
The monument
Thanks for sharing that fragment...been ages since I've watched that movie.  Enjoyed it!  :)

I hear a lot more of Stravinsky in here.  I love 70's Goldsmith more than 80's Goldsmith.  Alot of innovation and exotic percussion.  I knew his percussionist who worked on all scores from the 1960's till Goldsmith's death.  A very lovely man who collected percussive instruments as he traveled the world.  His collection is what's heard in Planet of the Apes and no doubt this score as well.  Sadly, he died a year or two ago.  Much of these instruments are primitive African hand made instruments which works well for those sci-fi scores of the 60's and 70's.  Jerry didn't do his own orchestrations but indicated the weird sounds he was looking for in the short score.  This one in addition to having a usual concert orchestra also used an alto flute, and interestingly, strings but no double basses. 

Thank you for sharing your stories and comments.  :)

PD

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1272 on: April 07, 2021, 11:56:10 AM »
Thanks Fergus.
I've just had to order a new CD and DVD player as they have both packed up in sympathy with each other.  >:(
Sorry to hear that Jeffrey--bad luck!

Coincidental bad timing there Jeffrey. You may as well order a new set of speakers and an amp while you are at it just to upgrade your whole system in one fell swoop  ;D
Brilliant idea Fergus!  ;D

PD

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1273 on: April 07, 2021, 12:03:49 PM »
Arthur Morton is credited with orchestrating a good number of Goldsmith's scores for c. 30 years.

From an interesting article:

http://www.jerrygoldsmithonline.com/spotlight_arthur_morton.htm
Quite interesting Cato....thank you for sharing them!  :)

PD
Yes, with great composers like John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith - they use orchestrators but only do this for practical reasons.  They can and do their own orchestrations when time allows for it but they generally have very limited time to complete a score.  The massive two hour score for The Empire Strikes Back for example was composed in about 6 weeks including orchestrations.  That requires these composers to write about 2 minutes of completed orchestral music per day, every day to make there schedules.  It was the same with Max Steiner, Franz Waxman, Alfred Newman, etc.  All used orchestrators to handle the volume of workload but their sketches are extremely detailed, all instrumental and voicing decisions are still made by the composer, they just write in a sort of short hand to get it done fast.  I orchestrate professionally and have reviewed these orchestral sketches and am very surprised how detailed they are but someone who doesn't know what they are looking at might consider the sketches to leave much to the orchestrator.  That is rarely the case with the old generation of composers.  Modern film composers, that's a bit of a different story where the orchestrator can sometimes be an arranger and co-composer.  For example, in a John Williams short score, every note, voicing, instrumental detail including the ornaments, percussion, dynamics, etc., are indicated.  Even a harp gliss, he'll write out all the notes rather than just say "+harp" where the orchestrator will already know the harmony, can easily determine what notes should be in that gliss.   Because of this, John Williams' orchestrator considers themselves more of an editor than an orchestrator.  The same with Goldsmith and Arthur Morton.  I've just studied "Star Trek The Motion Picture" and have the full score and sketches and again, the sketches are elaborate and contain most details but an example where the composer might not fully know is with synths or exotic percussion where they'll sit with the player and determine the right sound they want to use.
Wow!  I really appreciate hearing your insights into the process.  :)

PD

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1274 on: April 07, 2021, 01:07:49 PM »
There is nothing new about a film composer's close relationship with a trusted orchestrator and neither was there any "secret" about it.  Exactly as explained in previous posts it was simply a practical/logistical arrangement a composer literally could no write all the notes of a full score in the alloted time.

A couple of interresting examples not mentioned here (perhaps previously but I have not read back through the thread).  Hugo Friedhofer is unusual because he worked as BOTH a composer in his own right - he won an Oscar for best score in 1947 for "The Best years of our Lives" - but he was also one of the main orchestrators for Steiner and Korngold.  The other great and very influential orchestrator was Conrad Salinger.  He really did create the "sound" of MGM musicals.  This is a great disc where you can hear this to brilliant effect;



The interesting thing here is that while Friedhofer's job would be to create a sound that emulated Korngold etc Salinger took a pretty standard song - Singin' in the Rain for example - and "build" onto that big MGM Film Musical sound - I love it!  I wish more discs were devoted to his work.  John Wilson has recreated/acknowledged Salinger's importance but oddly even now (not through his own actions) Wilson tends to be credited with the arrangements his orchestra plays where in fact they are often Salinger's.  There is a very interesting and extended article here well worth a read;

https://jackcampey.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/my-top-5-past-orchestrators-conrad-salinger/

I love this picture too;



spot the young Andre Previn front right - Salinger is right at the back on the right.  The picture is in the article listed above but also turns up in Previn's superb book about his time in Hollywood "No Minor Chords".

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1275 on: April 08, 2021, 05:47:17 AM »
Sorry to hear that Jeffrey--bad luck!
Brilliant idea Fergus!  ;D

PD
Thanks PD. In the Great Scheme of things it is no great disaster!
OT
I've decided to buy a new DVD player which also plays 'Blu Ray' discs. So, last night I was able to appreciate the excellent picture quality of the 1960s 'Jason and the Argonauts' (with its fine Bernard Herrmann musical score) which is the only Blu Ray disc in my possession.
 :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1276 on: April 08, 2021, 05:57:25 AM »
Thanks PD. In the Great Scheme of things it is no great disaster!
OT
I've decided to buy a new DVD player which also plays 'Blu Ray' discs. So, last night I was able to appreciate the excellent picture quality of the 1960s 'Jason and the Argonauts' (with its fine Bernard Herrmann musical score) which is the only Blu Ray disc in my possession.
 :)
Ah, so they've arrived already?

Well, that's one more Blue Ray than I have!  ;)

PD

Offline aligreto

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1277 on: April 09, 2021, 02:37:17 AM »
Dylan: Pat Garrett & Billy The Kid


It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline aligreto

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1278 on: April 09, 2021, 02:39:00 AM »

I've decided to buy a new DVD player which also plays 'Blu Ray' discs. So, last night I was able to appreciate the excellent picture quality of the 1960s 'Jason and the Argonauts' (with its fine Bernard Herrmann musical score) which is the only Blu Ray disc in my possession.
 :)

Now Jeffrey, there is another rabbit hole for you to go down and yet more things to hide from your better half  ;D
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and leave no doubt.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #1279 on: April 09, 2021, 10:30:10 AM »
Now Jeffrey, there is another rabbit hole for you to go down and yet more things to hide from your better half  ;D
Very astutely put Fergus! I've already ordered '2001: A Space Odyssey', 'Excalibur' and 'Murder My Sweet' (1945 version) on Blu-Ray (HMV 'Special Offers'). My daughter sarcastically texted me, asking if I was going to replace my entire DVD collection (which is much smaller than my CD collection) but the answer is definitely NO!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).