Film (movie) Music

Started by vandermolen, August 12, 2008, 12:33:38 AM

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Don

Quote from: sound67 on August 19, 2008, 05:33:29 AM
James, so just you know, is an prick. He tried to poison the thread on film music on the old board, too.

He knows NOTHING about film music and is just repeating old cliches. No old film score is even remotely as cliched as is his own tired routine.

Just disregard his postings. They're  worthless (see above).

Thomas

Not that I necessarily agree with James, but I don't find his comments worthless.  Also, to say that James knows nothing about film music sounds ridiculous assuming that he does watch movies having music in them.  

Personally, I find that film music can greatly enhance my enjoyment of a movie or just about destroy it.  And, with little exception, film music can not stand well on its own.

karlhenning

Quote from: Corey on August 19, 2008, 06:16:24 AM
There is Hans Werner Henze's score for Alain Resnais's Muriel ou le temps d'un retour.

Per Nørgård's score for Babettes gæstebud.

And don't forget the numerous film scores by Tōru Takemitsu.

That sort of begs the question, Corey.  When some try to argue for film-scorers 'qualifying' as Great Composers™, they point to (e.g.) Prokofiev's scores for Ivan the Terrible and Alexander Nevsky, Shostakovich's scores (not only the finest of his scores, but to his long catalogue of film scores), and to Vaughan Williams's Sinfonia antartica.

But (to choose but one of these for an example), if we were evaluating Shostakovich solely on the film scores (let's pretend he wrote nothing else), would we call him a great composer?  I gravely doubt it.  The film scoring is an interesting subset of his work, but the fifteen symphonies, the fifteen string quartets, the six concertos, the songs, the Opus 87 Preludes & Fugues — there is musical meat in the Shostakovich oeuvre, which wouldn't be there if he had just scored 200 films over the course of 40-50 years.

There is certainly skill and some considerable musical talent involved in scoring a film well;  but in any event, the fellow scoring the film is providing one element in the film-maker's composition, which is the film.  Scoring a film, one is a 'fellow traveler';  and not in the compositional driver's seat.

sound67

The same crap you wrote then. You just don't know anything about the many suggestions made by other posters on how to get some first-hand knowledge you simply dismissed.

You're hopeless.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning

Quote from: Corey on August 19, 2008, 06:16:24 AM
Per Nørgård's score for Babettes gæstebud.

Babette's Feast?  Gosh, I dimly remember watching that when I was an undergrad . . . don't recall the music at all.

Kullervo

#104
Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 06:24:46 AM
I haven't heard those Corey, but i doubt VERY HIGHLY that they come remotely close to the great profundity found in Webern's and Ligeti's work.

They don't, but I feel pretty sure it wasn't their intention to create a Masterpiece with a capital 'M'. Should you lay the blame on Beethoven because his string quartets don't make good dinner music? Of course not, because that isn't what they were made for.

Quote from: karlhenning on August 19, 2008, 06:27:07 AM
That sort of begs the question, Corey.  When some try to argue for film-scorers 'qualifying' as Great Composers™, they point to (e.g.) Prokofiev's scores for Ivan the Terrible and Alexander Nevsky, Shostakovich's scores (not only the finest of his scores, but to his long catalogue of film scores), and to Vaughan Williams's Sinfonia antartica.

But (to choose but one of these for an example), if we were evaluating Shostakovich solely on the film scores (let's pretend he wrote nothing else), would we call him a great composer?  I gravely doubt it.  The film scoring is an interesting subset of his work, but the fifteen symphonies, the fifteen string quartets, the six concertos, the songs, the Opus 87 Preludes & Fugues — there is musical meat in the Shostakovich oeuvre, which wouldn't be there if he had just scored 200 films over the course of 40-50 years.

There is certainly skill and some considerable musical talent involved in scoring a film well;  but in any event, the fellow scoring the film is providing one element in the film-maker's composition, which is the film.  Scoring a film, one is a 'fellow traveler';  and not in the compositional driver's seat.

The examples I listed are merely scores that have a high degree of craftsmanship and complement the images they were created for — and really, that is all I expect a film score to be.

karlhenning

Quote from: Corey on August 19, 2008, 06:38:27 AM
They don't, but I feel pretty sure it wasn't their intention to create a Masterpiece with a capital 'M'. Should you lay the blame on Beethoven because his string quartets don't make good dinner music? Of course not, because that isn't what they were made for. The examples I listed are merely scores that have a high degree of craftsmanship and complement the images they were created for — and really, that is all I expect a film score to be.

Gold star.

karlhenning

Quote from: Don on August 19, 2008, 06:21:39 AM
Not that I necessarily agree with James, but I don't find his comments worthless.  Also, to say that James knows nothing about film music sounds ridiculous assuming that he does watch movies having music in them.  

Personally, I find that film music can greatly enhance my enjoyment of a movie or just about destroy it.  And, with little exception, film music can not stand well on its own.

Well said, Don.

karlhenning

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 06:50:32 AM
Thanks for clearing that up, and good too see that you realize the immense gulph between skillful picture musik and the real deep artistic stuff. :)

Well, but if (say) Shostakovich did both, he isn't split in twain by any enormous gulf, is he?

karlhenning

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 07:00:18 AM
You know, in all honesty...considering what film music usually is, I haven't even listened to (or much want to) hear his film music.

Then I should suggest you watch the Kozintsev films of Hamlet & King Lear;  great films, of great dramas, very fittingly scored.

Quote from: JamesThere is no way in hell it can possibily compare to his deepest & most rewarding masterpieces.

But, you won't know, until you listen.

Kullervo

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 06:50:32 AM
good too see that you realize the immense gulf between skillful picture music and the real deep artistic stuff. :)

A non-issue. No one here has said that film scores are "real deep artistic stuff".


karlhenning

Look, they're great films;  watching them will not be a waste of your time.

I don't anticipate any blood spillage.

Wanderer

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 05:29:00 AM
Yea, those...

Whatever you think of Korngold's later career in Hollywood obviously clouds your perception of his music in general. I do hope that your downright dismissal of these three utterly original and sophisticated works from one of the most talented composers of the 20th century is based on unfamiliarity with the works themselves and not merely on snobbery or bad taste.

Wanderer

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 07:43:09 AM
No, my perception isn't clouded by anything, my perception is solely based on what I have heard.

Hopefully, but the question remains how familiar you are with these works.

Wanderer

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 07:56:16 AM
i have listened-to and experienced his music, I am familiar with it. 

I'm curious, though; how many times did you listen to these three works in particular to decide they're "light and trite"?

ChamberNut

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 08:25:09 AM
I have listened to them more than enough times to form an opinion.

I doubt that.  Perhaps you could take a breather in between your Stockhausen marathons and sample some of Korngold's works.

karlhenning

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 08:25:09 AM
I have listened to them more than enough times to form an opinion.

This sounds like the statement of someone explaining why no modern music is on the same level as the classics, you know.

Wanderer

Quote from: karlhenning on August 19, 2008, 08:29:07 AM
This sounds like the statement of someone explaining why no modern music is on the same level as the classics, you know.

Especially considering that "more than enough times to form an opinion" could very well mean "once".

Don

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2008, 08:27:16 AM
I doubt that.  Perhaps you could take a breather in between your Stockhausen marathons and sample some of Korngold's works.

Please give it a break.  The man states that he's heard enough of Korngold's music to form an overall opinion, and he doesn't think very well of it.  From what I know of James' taste in music, I wouldn't expect a different assessment from him.

ezodisy

Quote from: sound67 on August 17, 2008, 11:40:41 PM
The composer knows best about which music is most effective for a film, i.e. if he knows his craft. More often than not, scores in film history that were rejected were so because of considerations other than the QUALITY of the rejected score. And in most cases these were replaced with scores that were musically and dramatically less sound and less effective (Frenzy, Torn Curtain, Legend, Troja, etc.)

Thomas

While catching up on the thread I came across this quote. Are you serious about the first line? I ask because all the interviews I've read with directors like Tarkovsky, Tarr, Antonioni, Sokurov and I think some others make it sound as if only the director can know what music is best for his film. Perhaps I'm taking your quote out of context?

Wanderer

Quote from: James on August 19, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
oh, definitely more than once down thru the years to be sure.  :)

More than once. That's a good start.