Film (movie) Music

[sound67]

While catching up on the thread I came across this quote. Are you serious about the first line? I ask because all the interviews I've read with directors like Tarkovsky, Tarr, Antonioni, Sokurov and I think some others make it sound as if only the director can know what music is best for his film. Perhaps I'm taking your quote out of context?

How come that very few of these directors' films have memorable scores?

Many composers complain, and rightly so, that the directors and producers they're working for are not musically erudite. Of course in the days of the Hollywood studio system this didn't matter, since the film was usually taken from the director after the end of principal photography. Editing was done by the editing department, scoring was handled by the music department. With very few exceptions, like Hitchcock or Welles, the directors had little if anything to say about the music.

Many of the heads of the music departments weren't musically educated either  .  André Previn's memories of Hollywood, laid down in a modest but hugely entertaining book called No Minor Chords, contain many anecdotes about music directors who would call the composer to their offices, use a single thumb to play a melody on the piano, and then told the composer to develop a score based on that "theme". That the old studio system's assembly line produced so many memorable movies, and so many memorable scores, is quite surpirising.

Even today, few directors have a say in the music, it's handled by the "suits". Directors like the one you named are not typical at all, at least as far as America and Hollywood - or commercial film making on the whole - are concerned. Still, today's composers also complain that often they're trying to do something different, but e.g. the producer or music editor have fallen in love with their temp score (such as Kubrick did with his selections), or are just unable to communicate even what kind of score they want.

Thomas

[ezodisy]

There is Hans Werner Henze's score for Alain Resnais's Muriel ou le temps d'un retour.

Indeed that one is quite remarkable. Do you know if Henze composed it for the film or if Resnais took it from an existing composition? I ask because it's one of the rare times where I think the music could stand on its own. It has a terrifying disjointed feeling to it, something akin to a breakdown maybe, and that compliments Resnais's fragmented narrative quite well. If you think I'm talking nonsense then you may be right as my memory is a little hazy from around this time, though I'm pretty sure it was the Henze score which had that effect on me.

[ezodisy]

How come that very few of these directors' films have memorable scores?

Are you joking? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you haven't seen any films by Tarr or Sokurov yet. Antonioni in his interviews and essays stated many times that film music is only one small element of a film which must be integrated (not plastered on top as in 99% of films) and used sparingly for its effect. He didn't use music much, and what he did use was often some '60s/'70s pop music, though when it was used it worked very well in quick snippets that complimented the feeling and aesthetic of the film. As for Tarkovsky, well, if you don't consider his Bach from Solaris, Mirror and Sacrifice or his Verdi from Nostalgia--mixed with those breathtaking images--as something memorable and unique in film and film-music history, then I don't know what to say.

Actually, rereading your sentence I think we are talking about two different things. I meant to talk about music strictly as a part of the film. Your word of "score" makes me think you want something that can be extracted, no? Personally I don't think film music has a life outside the film, so we are probably talking about completely different things.

Also I think you are concentrating more on original music, and of the above 4 I mentioned it's mostly only Tarr who uses that. That's a topic I don't know anything about and I'm sure you're right about how decisions are made....

I just noticed that this thread is in the music section of the board. Sorry, I thought it was in the diner. I see why original film music is being concentrated on now.

[sound67]

Actually, rereading your sentence I think we are talking about two different things. I meant to talk about music strictly as a part of the film. Your word of "score" makes me think you want something that can be extracted, no? Personally I don't think film music has a life outside the film, so we are probably talking about completely different things.

Indeed. I already explained this earlier in the thread. To me, film music that is merely functional, but not "alive" as music, cannot constitute good (original!) film music. Pop score snippets do not a film score make. We are talking about different things entirely.

Thomas

[sound67]

Indeed that one is quite remarkable. Do you know if Henze composed it for the film or if Resnais took it from an existing composition? I ask because it's one of the rare times where I think the music could stand on its own. It has a terrifying disjointed feeling to it, something akin to a breakdown maybe, and that compliments Resnais's fragmented narrative quite well. If you think I'm talking nonsense then you may be right as my memory is a little hazy from around this time, though I'm pretty sure it was the Henze score which had that effect on me.

Henze also wrote a subtle score for Schloendorff's "Swan in Love", but that music is indeed very fragmented when listened to independently. "The Lost Honour of Katharina Blum" OTOH is eminently listenable on its own. Both were released together on a Milan LP long ago, I don't know whether they're available now.

Thomas

[Wanderer]

...not that you have to listen to his stuff that much anyhow...

Certainly not if you don't care to get to know them; however, there's much to be appreciated in Korngold's music, especially the works mentioned above. Time's your ally there.

[ezodisy]

Indeed. I already explained this earlier in the thread.

I missed it then.

To me, film music that is merely functional, but not "alive" as music, cannot constitute good (original!) film music. Pop score snippets do not a film score make.

I don't really understand what you mean by "alive as music"? If anything, wouldn't music that is "merely functional" be the very scores composed which are external from the film, i.e. the music which is added on top of scenes to highlight a climax or denouement? It seems to me that most film music is merely functional, in the sense that it is used only to 1) highlight a high emotional point, 2) as a segway, or 3) to cover up a certain negative emptiness (as opposed to a meaningful emptiness) in action or dialogue. I would like to redefine "original film music" to mean music which is so integrated within a film that it no longer has a role outside of the image -- something I find to be the case in only a tiny, tiny percentage of films.

[DavidRoss]

James made his prejudices apparent from the time he joined this forum.  Trying to argue him out of them seems like an exercise in futility.  Would you argue with a certain poster about the relative merits of Beethoven and Elgar?  Or with another about Mendelssohn's superiority to all others by virture of his ancestry?  (Hmmm, come to think of it, some would!  )

Back to movie music:  recent mainstream films whose music I've especially enjoyed are The Road to Perdition and Catch Me If You Can.  I think John Williams might have been capable of becoming a fine "serious" composer had he chosen that path...which reminds me that it's been too long since I listened to his bassoon concerto.

[Wanderer]

Oh but I DO know his stuff, and here is the rest of what I said that went along with that...

it's pretty safe & straight forward stuff and easily digested. No mystery whatsoever.

What I find very telling is that during all this time you keep using sweeping generalizations (e.g. "stuff"), even when you're specifically enquired about particular works. That can't be very insightful.

Not meaning you're not entitled to whatever opinion your exposure to this music has led to, of course. There are people who think more highly of Korngold than you do, which might be a hint there's more to him than meets the (your) eye. 

James made his prejudices apparent from the time he joined this forum.

I wasn't aware of it, but I'm starting to catch up.

[sound67]

I am similarly guarded about pop musicians, Thos;  not everyone who can write a really good three-minute song, is a composer.  Your average film scorer has a better tool-box and more refined skill than Barry Manilow.  But practically everyone here has actually missed my point:  that there is a mastery of large-scale artistic integrity and coherence which is a necessary component to composition in art. 

Right. Then Morricone's scores certainly fit the bill.

The two compilation discs you've listened you contain a very wild selection from several decades worth of Morricone's oeuvre, thrown together without rhyme or reason. I'm temperamentally opposed against such "best of" selections, for isolated themes - even those of the spaghetti westerns - can never properly represent an achievement in dramatic scoring. Concert suites are a different matter, but they are not these discs.

Karl, you could easily find integral versions of any of those scores (there are more soundtrack albums with his music than of any other film composer), and I think they would change your mind. Many of Morricone's works offer a high level of musical integration uncommon in most film music. Some do not; as I wrote, he composed too much music and stopped being interesting in about 1989. But between the late 1960s and The Untouchables, there is a lot of worthwile music - worthwhile also independent of the films. That makes him a "composer" under the rules and regulations you specified above. 

Thomas

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Do you ever judge a musical performance by a conductor, or orchestra, or soloist? Or that a certain concert work is worthy of your attention, and others are not? If so, how can you, if you're not a conductor, or orchestral player, or soloist, or composer? These "judgements" are made on this board and elsewhere every day.

What you're saying is something else all together from what I'm saying.

I don't deny that 'critiquing' music (like on GMG) is fun and makes for lively discussion but what you're saying is you've somehow worked yourself into position to pass judgment on the artistic process ITSELF.

IOW, you feel you can play traffic cop directing the artist to this destination or that. Which is silly. Believe me, someone the caliber of Kubrick doesn't need your help.

BTW, you never did tell me what 'improvements' you'd make to Brahms's fourth symphony.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And this is why the 2001 soundtrack, such as it is, has come to be accepted as something even "inevitable". Because we're used to it, and it's difficult to imagine other music set to the pictures. But when the film came out, responses to the music were divided. A typical reaction today is one like "domwyn"'s: The film is a classic, the director an acknowledged master. Therefore, all his decisions must have been right, or, again, "inevitable" - therefore to even think that what has come to be seen as "classic" MIGHT have been a mistake is sacrilegious.

Domwyn is of course entitled to this argumentation, as much as I'm entitled to call it cowardly.  0:)
 

Just because a piece of art sparked critical division initially doesn't mean that the truth won't eventually win out.

And that's not "cowardly". I'd rather trust time's (and the artist's) critical eye than yours.

BTW, with all your powers of perception you'd think you could get my name right - it's spelled donwyn.

[jochanaan]

Take my word for it my friend, I am not bullshitting you, I have heard the works you have mentioned earlier and others. (ie. Violin Concerto, Symphony, Much Ado About Nothing etc.) 

So you don't find depth and power in Korngold's music.  Well, a lot of us do, including me.  So who is right?

[sound67]

I don't deny that 'critiquing' music (like on GMG) is fun and makes for lively discussion but what you're saying is you've somehow worked yourself into position to pass judgment on the artistic process ITSELF.

IOW, you feel you can play traffic cop directing the artist to this destination or that. Which is silly. Believe me, someone the caliber of Kubrick doesn't need your help.

Since I'm very familiar with the process of film scoring I think I can on my own opinion in those cases as 2001, where that who?s and how?s of the process are fairly well known. Of course Kubrick doesn't need my help. If you noticed, he's been dead for quite a while. That doesn't mean he's beyond criticism.

And your inane question about the Brahms Symphony clearly illustrates that you have no idea what you're talking about, since criticizing the symphony would involve criticizing the RESULT (which is done here every day, on compositons AND performances), not the process. Clearly, it is you who cannot differentiate between PROCESS and RESULT.

In the case of 2001, I criticzed BOTH, but you didn't notice. And I'm entitled to either. And you are, too, but if you feel you aren't because you consider yourself "less able", then that's entirely your thing.

Thomas

[sound67]

II would like to redefine "original film music" to mean music which is so integrated within a film that it no longer has a role outside of the image -- something I find to be the case in only a tiny, tiny percentage of films.

"Original score" is defined as new music composed specifically as a dramatic underscore for a motion picture (sometimes song scores qualify as such, as in the case of "The Graduate"). THAT's what I'm talking about. It's how the Academy defines it, and indeed all film music publications and awards committees. Leonard Rosenman e.g. won an oscar for Barry Lyndon as "score adaptation", because it was based on pre-existing music.

Many 'original' scores are, too, but too few people notice. 

Thomas

[sound67]

Since Korngold's name has come up repeatedly, let's discuss some recordings of his (film). These are CDsy I'd recommend for the "beginner":



An album with concert suites is a great way of getting to know a composer, before you start sampling single-score CDs (if available). As far as that particular genre goes, the SEA HAWK sampler by RCA (here in its extended CD-re-release version) is top-of-the-line. Great selections from the individual scores, great playing by the National Philharmonic Orchestra (a pick-up band of London's best orchestral players), expert conducting by Charles Gerhardt and superb sound by Kenneth Wilkinson. Some of the albums in the RCA series, including this one, are among the best analogue recordings I've ever heard.



A sampler with suites from various scores for Errol Flynn swashbucklers, including some more material from "The Sea Hawk" as well as a longer suite from "The Adventures of Robin Hood". It also contains a vividly recorded suite from one Max Steiner's greatest scores, "The Adventures of Don Juan" (If I hgad to pick a single, desert-island example of great analogue engineering I'd pick the "Parade into London" ´cue from this suite).



If someones looking for more representative selections from Korngold's scores for THE SEA HAWK and THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD, I'd strongly recommend these two Varese recordings made by the Utah Symphony Orchestra in the 1980s. William Stromberg's recent, rather lackluster readings with the Moscow Symphony on Naxos, are "complete", but not nearly as well played or recorded. Both of Kojian's discs were produced by the composer's son, George Korngold, who also initiated the RCA series. The "early" digital sound is glorious (Soundstream Digital was a good system when properly used).

There is also an André Previn-conducted all-Korngold sampler entitled THE SEA HAWK from Deutsche Grammophon, but it's not nearly as well played or recorded as the Gerhardt-suites.

Thomas

[ezodisy]

"Original score" is defined as new music composed specifically as a dramatic underscore for a motion picture (sometimes song scores qualify as such, as in the case of "The Graduate"). THAT's what I'm talking about. It's how the Academy defines it, and indeed all film music publications and awards committees. Leonard Rosenman e.g. won an oscar for Barry Lyndon as "score adaptation", because it was based on pre-existing music.

Many 'original' scores are, too, but too few people notice. 

Thomas

If you have time, I would like to hear your opinion on the differences between what you call "alive" music and music that is "merely functional" in the context of a film.

[sound67]

If you have time, I would like to hear your opinion on the differences between what you call "alive" music and music that is "merely functional" in the context of a film.

I mentioned this earlier when someone suggested that John Carpenter's Halloween score was similar to what Bernard Herrmann did. Carpenter's music does not stand up on an album as an independent musical entity, while it serves well enough (not that someone like Herrmann wouldn't have improved on Carpenter in that regard as well) as functional music to support the picture. I suggest you read the thread to see what I and others are looking for when they listen to film music.

Thomas

[ezodisy]

I mentioned this earlier when someone suggested that John Carpenter's Halloween score was similar to what Bernard Herrmann did. Carpenter's music does not stand up on an album as an independent musical entity, while it serves well enough (not that someone like Herrmann wouldn't have improved on Carpenter in that regard as well) as functional music to support the picture. I suggest you read the thread to see what I and others are looking for when they listen to film music.

Thomas

So am I understanding correctly that your only qualification for "alive film music" is that it has external independent relistening value?

[Bogey]

and Catch Me If You Can.  I think John Williams might have been capable of becoming a fine "serious" composer had he chosen that path...which reminds me that it's been too long since I listened to his bassoon concerto.

I also mentioned this one earlier David.  I would bet our friend Karl would dig this effort as well.  I will see if the shop down the road has an extra copy and get it to "The Pulse" pronto.