Film (movie) Music

Started by vandermolen, August 12, 2008, 12:33:38 AM

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sound67

#200
Quote from: pjme on August 22, 2008, 01:15:18 AM
Do you know if the score (not a DVD) of "Logan's run" is available ? My search on the net was ...unclear.

Peter

I think the FSM release is still available from ScreenArchives:
http://www.screenarchives.com/title_detail.cfm?ID=2555

The various releases of Logan's Run can be sampled here:
http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/catalog/soundtrackdetail.php?movieid=5629

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

pjme


sound67

Since all of the above are concerned with American film music, here's an interesting book on film scoring in England:

Jan G. Swynnoe, The Best Years of British Film Music, 1936-1958


While containing many insightful observations on different techniques of scoring, I found it a wee bit too chauvinistic (i.e. British film music being inherently superior to American film music).

If you want to sample monographies on individual film composers, have a look at these:

Steven C. Smith, A Heart at Fire's Center: The Life and Music of Bernard Herrmann


A must for Herrmann devotees, I can't recommend it (often) enough.

You can now reads of it on google/books: http://books.google.de/books?id=GLOheEsGd_4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+heart+at+fire%27s+center

Miklós Rózsa, Double Life. The Autobiography of Miklós Rózsa


An entertaining autobiography that will tell you a lot about the inner workings of the Hollywood studio system. The title is suggestive of the composer's dual career in film and concert music.

Ian Johnson, William Alwyn: The Art of Film Music


A look at one of England's great film composers. The fact that many of those British movies are not all that well known sometimes makes it difficult to follow the individual analysis of their music scores.

Thomas

"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

ezodisy

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 12:50:48 AM
Sorry, but as I pointed out above, I will not involve myself into this kind of discussing the "specs" of film music as an art (i.e. the "mosaic" aspects, as Herrmann liked to refer to them) ever again - I've been through it once too often. Actually, twice too often.

That's fine, though by saying "discussing the specs of film music as an art" I don't think you've quite understood what I was looking for. I wanted to know about a composer's view of how a director integrates the music. That has very little to do with film music as an art. Most of that list of books, though perhaps interesting in a way, also appears to have nothing to do with this topic. Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that you're not particularly interested in how the director uses the music. Considering you've said that it's often the "suits" who do the choosing, I think that belittling most directors in this way is not a particularly good thing to do and will not help film music rise from its rank of obviously secondary importance in any film.

sound67

#204
Quote from: ezodisy on August 22, 2008, 03:29:00 AM
That's fine, though by saying "discussing the specs of film music as an art" I don't think you've quite understood what I was looking for. I wanted to know about a composer's view of how a director integrates the music.

Some of the books above discuss the nuts and bolts of film scoring. That's the job, whether it's done with or without the director's, the sound editor's or the producer's influence. It's the musical perspective, which should also be how a director would ideally approach it.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

ezodisy

Overtones and Undertones looks interesting at first glance, I might see if my library has that. Still, whatever the excellence of the film score, I think it's the director who chooses what goes in and what stays out, so the actual details of the scoring are irrelevant to this subject.

sound67

Quote from: ezodisy on August 22, 2008, 03:41:28 AM
Overtones and Undertones looks interesting at first glance, I might see if my library has that. Still, whatever the excellence of the film score, I think it's the director who chooses what goes in and what stays out, so the actual details of the scoring are irrelevant to this subject.

No, they're not. Since it's a collaborative art, communication between the different artists is essential. Therefore, the more you know about the other person's job, the better the chance for a result in which all the elements click (not that this knowledge necessarily makes the process easier  ;)).

As such, it's your posts that are irrelevant to the subject of the thread, which was vadermolen's idea - an exchange on favorite film scores and composers.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

#207
Quote from: James on August 22, 2008, 03:45:56 AMNo he's not. In the area of light-scale film maybe, but in the area of high-quality, high-integrity art music & classical composition? You must be dreaming. And nothing you say, or any amount of book covers sound67 posts with ever change that...

Incidentally, I recommended some of these books to "james" on the old board, too, with the same result: It's all just "stuff", whereas all the pieces he loves are necessarily works of genius (maybe he would feel guilty to think less of piece he admires), and only they are worth investigating. Personal commentary removed by moderator. (GB)

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

#208
Quote from: ezodisy on August 22, 2008, 03:41:28 AM
Overtones and Undertones looks interesting at first glance, I might see if my library has that.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a study that deals with "integrating music into film" from a director's perspective. A handbook on that might make an interesting read, AFAIK there is none.

I read Sidney Lumet's book Making Movies some time ago. It does include a chapter on film music (he explains parts of the process with regard to how his movies were scored), but it's not terribly specific.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

ezodisy

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 03:47:03 AM
As such, it's your posts that are irrelevant to the subject of the thread

Believe it or not I am aware of that as I know what the thread is about. I specifically asked you about this as you seem to know some things about film music, though the way you tend to dismiss some directors with the suits jibe makes it obvious tha you're not really the person to ask about it. Film music is important, but I think it's pretty obvious that you're well exaggerating it.

sound67

Quote from: James on August 22, 2008, 04:04:33 AM
you don't expect me to waste my money on that crap do you?

Quod erat demonstrandum.  ;D
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Gurn Blanston

Alright, folks, let's tone down the rhetoric a little bit, shall we? If a civil discussion of film music is beyond our capabilities, then we won't have one. I doubt that will be necessary...

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

karlhenning

Well, I am not going to repeat myself yet again;  I shall say simply that my artistic concerns on this topic remain unaddressed.

And, folks, if you find yourself lapsing into personal remark, reflect on that fact before acting on the impulse.  It probably means that you aren't stating yourself as clearly as you imagine, that what you take for obvious Revealed Truth probably isn't anything of the sort, and that you and the other fellow aren't aligning in the discourse.

Step away for a bit, is all.

sound67

Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2008, 04:04:52 PM
However, even greater, in my opinion, than Herrmann's Moby Dick cantata is Phillip Sainton's score for the movie Moby Dick (Marco Polo)

Don't quite agree on this one. While I much like the Sainton score (the playing on the original soundtrack album is much better than the Moscow readings under Stromberg), the Herrmann's Moby Dick is a vital piece of musical "Americana" and an intriguing attempt to condense the essence of the sprawling Melville novel into a dramatic cantata. John Barbirolli premiered it, and thought highly of it. Sadly, there is only Herrmann's own recording of the piece, made under adverse circumstances (detailed in the Steven Smith book), but it still packs a punch.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

DavidRoss

#214
Thanks, Gurn, for the judicious snippage--I felt, however, no offense in what was removed from Thomas's post, since he was simply quoting another.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm beginning to like Stockhausen even less than Elgar--although Elgar composed at least a couple of works that stand with the best IMO, I can't think of a single film he wrote for!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 05:28:44 AM
. . . an intriguing attempt to condense the essence of the sprawling Melville novel into a dramatic cantata.

Tangentially, Thos, another attempt to condense it even denser (so to speak) is Peter Mennin's Concertato: Moby-Dick.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 10:49:19 PM
No I'm not. I said that to get a quality movie with a quality score the director should know something about music, because it severely improves the chances of getting the best possible score for his "quality movie". If he doesn't, he should trust the composer on the matter to get the best result. In the case of 2001, the director didn't - instead, he ignored the composer and made his own "musical decisions", which are crass and vulgar.

And who are you to decide what "musical decisions" are best for a director??!??


QuoteBTW, Jerry Goldsmith and Alex North were not "musical midgets" (Come to think of it: If the phrase "takes one to know one" is right, then ...) in comparison to Richard Strauss. They represent pinnacles in their field, as Strauss did in his (opera - and, only partly, of the symphonic poem). Their achievement is just as worthy, as film as an art of the 20th century is just as worthy as opera. If you mean they didn't write operas as good as Strauss, you'd be right. And I never said they did (In fact, they didn't write ANY (AFAIR)).

Thomas

WHERE THE @#&!% DID I SAY ANY OF THIS??!!??!!??!!??!?!!

So it's not enough to insult me, you have to dream up scenarios to connect me with!!!!

First class troll, you are.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

sound67

Quote from: donwyn on August 22, 2008, 06:40:54 AM
WHERE THE @#&!% DID I SAY ANY OF THIS??!!??!!??!!??!?!!

I was referring to a comment by M forever DIRECTLY above my reply, so I felt no need for an extra "quote".

You should really try to improve your powers of observation.  ;D

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

Quote from: James on August 22, 2008, 07:13:55 AM
Yes they are, & trying to compare what they do to a great composer/artist as substantial & important as Richard Strauss is well, sadly delusional. The deeply profound Last Four Songs alone pretty much floor ANYTHING you'll find in surface film fair...

You just don't get it.
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

ezodisy

Quote from: sound67 on August 21, 2008, 10:49:19 PM
BTW, Jerry Goldsmith and Alex North were not "musical midgets" (Come to think of it: If the phrase "takes one to know one" is right, then ...) in comparison to Richard Strauss. They represent pinnacles in their field, as Strauss did in his (opera - and, only partly, of the symphonic poem). Their achievement is just as worthy, as film as an art of the 20th century is just as worthy as opera. If you mean they didn't write operas as good as Strauss, you'd be right. And I never said they did (In fact, they didn't write ANY (AFAIR)).

Thomas

I really don't know how you can sit there and claim that film music is just as worthy as opera. They are on completely different levels -- no comparison at all. Or do any composers here disagree with me? Obviously film music means a lot to you sound67, enough so to somewhat dismiss the much more important director, unfortunately. But claiming this is really just a bit rich.