Film (movie) Music

Started by vandermolen, August 12, 2008, 12:33:38 AM

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karlhenning

Quote from: ezodisy on August 22, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
I really don't know how you can sit there and claim that film music is just as worthy as opera. They are on completely different levels -- no comparison at all. Or do any composers here disagree with me?

The chap scoring a film, and the composer of an opera, are indeed two entirely different matters, as you observe, Tony.

The film score does not even rise to the level, in its context, of the libretto.  For, no matter if the composer of the opera makes alterations to or cuts from the libretto, the libretto is the basis for the overall project in a way which it would be absurd to speak of any film score . . . which again, is one specific type of material provided to the filmmaker, who often makes alterations to whatever the film scorer supplies him, as suits the shaping of the film/movie.

To repeat:  the fellow who provides the score to a film has no say in regard to the overall composition in question;  which, BTW, is much less control than composers from Tchaikovsky on have had in the ballets they have composed, e.g..

karlhenning

BTW, I should have objected to Thos's referring to a film score as "a cantata," only one tires of iterating the same point to someone who steadfastly ignores it  0:)

sound67

#222
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 07:43:20 AM
BTW, I should have objected to Thos's referring to a film score as "a cantata," only one tires of iterating the same point to someone who steadfastly ignores it  0:)

Ahem, it's not a film score. It IS a cantata.



Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

#223
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 07:40:34 AM
who often makes alterations to whatever the film scorer supplies him, as suits the shaping of the film/movie.

Wrong again. The composer begins his work when the final cut of the movie has already been made, thus he is able to shape the music to his own liking, adapting (but not necessarily subjecting himself) to the rhythm of the film.  It is only if the director has second thoughts about the editing that sometimes scores have to be altered or new music be written. Tru, the director can throw out individual cues or the music as a whole, but that happens very infrequently. So infrequently in fact that those rejected scores are often famous/notorious.

It's very rare are that scores get written before the final edit is completed, and even more rarely before or during principal photography. In some of the cases, like Arthur Bliss "Things to Come", the director edited the movie to fit the score!

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

#224
Quote from: ezodisy on August 22, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
I really don't know how you can sit there and claim that film music is just as worthy as opera.

I didn't say that at all. I said film is just as worthy as opera, and that music is a part of that art, so that its pinnacles equal other arts in achievement.

Cole Porter e.g. couldn't have written The Four Last Songs. But Richard Strauss would have been technically and temperamentally unfit to write something like "Anything Goes". Likewise, the film composer needs different skills than somone writing a concert work - the results can still be as brilliant in their individual context. Still not clear?

And nowhere did I imply that e.g. Herrmann's Vertigo equals something like Stravinsky's Le Sacre in purely musical terms. I said that some movie music is so good it rises above its functional context and makes for rewarding listening. That's what I said. But in its function, and because of its functional as well as musical qualities, it can be just as brilliant in concept, and as a part of film art.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 07:59:06 AM
Wrong again. The composer begins his work when the final cut of the movie has already been made, thus he is able to shape the music to his own liking, adapting (but not necessarily subjecting himself) to the rhythm of the film.

Thos, it is either naive or disingenuous of you to assert that this is always the case.  And, self-important of you to set off with Wrong again.

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 08:02:13 AM
Cole Porter e.g. couldn't have written The Four Last Songs. But Richard Strauss would have been technically and temperamentally unfit to write something like "Anything Goes".

Right; and Vaughan Williams could not have written "Heartbreaker," so Vaughan Williams and Pat Benatar are equal in achievement.

sound67

#227
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 08:08:01 AM
Thos, it is either naive or disingenuous of you to assert that this is always the case.  And, self-important of you to set off with Wrong again.

Trust me, Karl, the vast majority of film composers work that way. Guilty of self-importance (I'm sorry), not guilty on naivety.

And while I admit that to composers not used to working within exact time frames the "corset" the film provides may beem debilitating, it's part of the film composer's craft to be able to work past those restrictions.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

#228
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 08:11:36 AM
Right; and Vaughan Williams could not have written "Heartbreaker," so Vaughan Williams and Pat Benatar are equal in achievement.

Not sure about Pat Benatar's achievement in her field, Karl (but am about Cole Porter's), so I can't say.

What I can say is that Vaughan Williams knew that Herrmann's Moby Dick is a cantata, not a film score.  ;D

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Don

Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 08:11:36 AM
Right; and Vaughan Williams could not have written "Heartbreaker," so Vaughan Williams and Pat Benatar are equal in achievement.

But wait!  Benatar is still alive, so she has the opportunity to pass Vaughan Williams. ;D

sound67

Quote from: Don on August 22, 2008, 08:24:21 AM
But wait!  Benatar is still alive, so she has the opportunity to pass Vaughan Williams. ;D

You sure she's still performing? She must be like, 60. Haven't heard from her since "Love is a battlefield".

Yes, Karl, I do know her. But since I'm not a pop-rock historian, I'll find it difficult to rate her.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Sergeant Rock

#231
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2008, 07:43:20 AM
BTW, I should have objected to Thos's referring to a film score as "a cantata"...

Karl, Herrmann's Moby Dick is a cantata for male chorus, soloists and orchestra, words by Melville. The work lasts 12 days played non-stop  ;D  Actually, according to the librettist, he made some "minor transpositions and condensations" so it's not quite as long as the novel.

As Thomas noted, the premiere was given by Barbirolli and the New York Philharmonic in April 1940. The work is dedicated to Charles Ives. Herrmann wrote, "The work is scored for large symphony orchestra, with the addition of thunder drums. The orchestra is used descriptively and as a commentary on the action. In composing Moby Dick I thought of it throughout as great literature set to music, rather than as a purely musical piece."

My LP copy:



Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

sound67

#232
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2008, 08:30:52 AMThe work is dedicated to Charles Ives.

Exactly. And even if Herrmann hadn't written any outstanding film scores, he would stilll have left his mark by tirelessly propagating his friend's music, as a conductor - at a time that a young opportunistic prick called Lenny Bernstein didn't even know how to spell "Ives".  ;D

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

DavidRoss

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 08:34:25 AM
...a young opportunistic prick called Lenny Bernstein....
Say what?!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Don

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 08:29:35 AM
You sure she's still performing? She must be like, 60.
Thomas

Whatever her age, Benatar is still vocalizing.  Recently, she and her husband did a number for the soap opera "The Young and Restless".  No, I didn't watch it.

pjme

OK.OK. can we have some



now? :)

sound67

QuoteSay what?!

As the man who prided himself on having re-discovered Ives ... and Mahler.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning

Quote...called Lenny Bernstein....

As qualified as my appreciation for Bernstein is, Thos, you've gauged yourself frightfully with that comment (too).

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 08:46:05 AM
As the man who prided himself on having re-discovered Ives ... and Mahler.

You're taking your feelings, and imagining a pathology on Bernstein's part, Thos.

You've got to know when to stop, and where to draw lines, fella.

sound67

It was actually an in-joke for those who know what Herrmann did besides composing film (and concert) music.

You don't know everything Karl.  :P
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht