Film (movie) Music

[lukeottevanger]

What is truly unfortunate is that Chris Columbus stopped directing the movies after the second installment (now it has turned into a turnstile).  Top this with  the death of actor Richard Harris in the role of Professor Albus Dumbledore.  In short,  they have fallen off for me and have moments of capturing the books, but little more than that. 

This is interestingly entirely opposed to the view of the BBC's Mark Kermode, who is passionate to the point of obsession and always worth a listen. In his opinion Columbus's HP films are just moviemaking by numbers, with no darkness, depth or directorial imagination to them - he calls Columbus 'the accountant'!    OTOH in his view the post-Columbus films take the franchise to much more interesting places, being conceived as film first and foremost, rather than merely as a visual version of the book. Kermode prides himself on this purist approach to film - it doesn't matter whether or not the film is faithful to the book, it must work on its own terms. In his view the Columbus films don't, and those afterwards do, to the extent that, rather surprisingly, he even thought one of them (no 4, I think) was one of the films of the year.

I mention this merely for interests' sake - because it surprises me that your view is so diametrically opposed to this one, which is also the one I've generally picked up on elsehwere. Personally I don't have a view on the matter!

[sound67]

I think Schoenberg & Stravinsky who lived in Hollywood were offered but they turned it down.

James doesn't know squad. Stravinsky very much wanted to score films, but the one time he tried, he failed.

Rózsa, who knew Stravinsky quite well in their Hollywood days tells the story in his autobiography. Stravinsky was offered a WWII actioner, Commandos Strike at Dawn. But he started writing the music before even the script had been completed, let alone the movie been made. He simply didn't understand the process. He made another mistake not having a contract signed before he proceeded to write the music, which means he didn't even get paid. Apparently, it was this "double failure" that prevented him from trying again.

Schoenberg was indeed not too keen on writing film music, but then Hollywood had little use for him either. He was approached only once, by Irving Thalberg, who asked him under which circumstances he could be persuaded to score the Luise Rainer epic The Good Earth. Schoenberg not only demanded a fee of 50,000 USD (greedy bugger), but he also made other demands, such as that all the actors in the film would have to deliver their dialogue in "Sprechstimme" mode. Apparently he did make some sketches on the music, but negotiations collapsed. Schoenberg also had no sense of humor, a quality needed for film work. He would have LOVED "James".

Stravinsky not writing film music because his ARTIISTIC INTEGRITY prevented him? How very funny. He would have written jingles had he been asked to.

Concert composers often failed because of their inability to understand the collaborative process of film-making and the demands it makes on the composer. Villa-Lobos committed to the same mistake Stravinsky had made: he was offered the score to Green Mansions, accepted, and proceeded to write the music down at home on the basis of the shooting script, before the film had been made. Bronislaw Kaper, the composer of such beautiful scores as Mutiny on the Bounty (1962), The Swan and Lord Jim, had to fit the score to the film as best he could. Villa Lobos used his material for an orchestral suite. 

Copland OTOH did great (and was honestly disappointed he didn't get asked more often), as did Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Virgil Thomson and Vaughan Williams. In recent times, Corigliano and his pupil Elliot Goldenthal have both done very well.

Thomas

[drogulus]

    

Anyone would have seen that for a joke, Ernie.

    I'll address my remarks to anyone, then.  

   

James doesn't know squad. Stravinsky very much wanted to score films, but the one time he tried, he failed.

Rózsa, who knew Stravinsky quite well in their Hollywood days tells the story in his autobiography. Stravinsky was offered a WWII actioner, Commandos Strike at Dawn. But he started writing the music before even the script had been completed, let alone the movie been made. He simply didn't understand the process. He made another mistake not having a contract signed before he proceeded to write the music, which means he didn't even get paid. Apparently, it was this "double failure" that prevented him from trying again.

Schoenberg was indeed not too keen on writing film music, but then Hollywood had little use for him either. He was approached only once, by Irving Thalberg, who asked him under which circumstances he could be persuaded to score the Luise Rainer epic The Good Earth. Schoenberg not only demanded a fee of 50,000 USD (greedy bugger), but he also made other demands, such as that all the actors in the film would have to deliver their dialogue in "Sprechstimme" mode. Apparently he did make some sketches on the music, but negotiations collapsed. Schoenberg also had no sense of humor, a quality needed for film work. He would have LOVED "James".

Stravinsky not writing film music because his ARTIISTIC INTEGRITY prevented him? How very funny. He would have written jingles had he been asked to.

Concert composers often failed because of their inability to understand the collaborative process of film-making and the demands it makes on the composer. Villa-Lobos committed to the same mistake Stravinsky had made: he was offered the score to Green Mansions, accepted, and proceeded to write the music down at home on the basis of the shooting script, before the film had been made. Bronislaw Kaper, the composer of such beautiful scores as Mutiny on the Bounty (1962), The Swan and Lord Jim, had to fit the score to the film as best he could. Villa Lobos used his material for an orchestral suite.

Copland OTOH did great (and was honestly disappointed he didn't get asked more often), as did Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Virgil Thomson and Vaughan Williams. In recent times, Corigliano and his pupil Elliot Goldenthal have both done very well.

Thomas

     Great stuff, thanks. Goldenthal sounds like someone who could inhabit both worlds (oops...he does). Rózsa wrote a fine violin concerto that was also prominent in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, my favorite Holmes film (dir. by Billy Wilder).

[Bogey]

This is interestingly entirely opposed to the view of the BBC's Mark Kermode, who is passionate to the point of obsession and always worth a listen. In his opinion Columbus's HP films are just moviemaking by numbers, with no darkness, depth or directorial imagination to them - he calls Columbus 'the accountant'!    OTOH in his view the post-Columbus films take the franchise to much more interesting places, being conceived as film first and foremost, rather than merely as a visual version of the book. Kermode prides himself on this purist approach to film - it doesn't matter whether or not the film is faithful to the book, it must work on its own terms. In his view the Columbus films don't, and those afterwards do, to the extent that, rather surprisingly, he even thought one of them (no 4, I think) was one of the films of the year.

I mention this merely for interests' sake - because it surprises me that your view is so diametrically opposed to this one, which is also the one I've generally picked up on elsehwere. Personally I don't have a view on the matter!

Wow.  Interesting take.  I can see making accommodations for the book (combining characters, leaving out subplots, etc.).  The view he has on it doesn't matter whether or not the film is faithful to the book is one I do not share, unless the book is just "not very good", which leads to an avalanche of subjectivity, I am sure.  However, as a ring shot at his philosophy, all I can say is that his type of thinking is why we are yet to have a decent film version of the first Tarzan book due to the fact that Burroghs' masterpiece seems to always get changed to the point where it becomes unrecognizable.  So, I would contend in some cases, and I would include the Potter books, painting exactly by the numbers might not be such a bad idea....IMO.  

[sound67]

This is the work that originated in the score to Green Mansions:



In the liner notes, conductor Alfred Heller made the mistake of attributing Villa-Lobos's failure to Hollywood, and in particular to poor old Bronislaw Kaper (A colleague of Rózsa's at MGM at the time). He jumped to the conclusion that of course it must have been the Hollywood studio that messed up, not the great, great, great concert composer. And he did not do any research on the subject.

He pulled a James, so to speak. 

Thomas

[sound67]

It was in it's infancy then and he was probably curious about it but never took it seriously to re-consider trying more.

Yes, movies really were in their respective infancy in 1937 (The Good Earth) and 1942 (Commandos Strike at Dawn). LOL!!! 

He (and Schoenberg), both bonafide musical geniuses were far too artistic for that shit anyway, whether they scored a film or not is immaterial...

Hey, another turn by 180 degrees. Keep 'em coming. 

[sound67]

Camille Saint-Saens, L'Assassinat du duc de Guise (1908)

Arthur Honegger, La Roue (1923)

George Antheil, Ballet mécanique (1924)

Arthur Honegger, Napoleon (1927)

Arthur Bliss, Things to Come (1936)

Sergei Prokofiev, Lieutenant Kije (1934)

Sergei Prokofiev, Alexander Newsky (1938)

Ahhh, those glorious infant days of cinema. 

[sound67]

Sorry, no takers. 

Now, having mentioned Antheil, here's another fine score of his':



And, look, it's coupled with another great North score, too. Coincidence, coincidence. 

Thomas

[Bogey]

In the tray:

[M forever]

Wow.  Interesting take.  I can see making accommodations for the book (combining characters, leaving out subplots, etc.).  The view he has on it doesn't matter whether or not the film is faithful to the book is one I do not share, unless the book is just "not very good", which leads to an avalanche of subjectivity, I am sure.  However, as a ring shot at his philosophy, all I can say is that his type of thinking is why we are yet to have a decent film version of the first Tarzan book due to the fact that Burroghs' masterpiece seems to always get changed to the point where it becomes unrecognizable.  So, I would contend in some cases, and I would include the Potter books, painting exactly by the numbers might not be such a bad idea....IMO.  

Come on, you didn't the think the Tarzan movie with Bo Derek was an epic filmic masterwork? 

I also agree with what that author said. Not so much about the "painting by numbers" or not, but about that that first movie directed by Chris Columbus was just totally unoriginal, mainstream, uninteresting, safe, too tailored to the very narrow expectations of the American mainstream audience (which also explains why you thought it was so good  ) to be interesting as a film as such. It was just a merchandising product. I have seen 2 or 3 of the other movies but don't really remember what I thought about them since I lost interest in the subject. I even read 3 or 4 of the books and found them rather entertaining and with a well defined, for books for young people surprisingly dark and intense, athmosphere which I think Columbus missed completely. And deliberately, of course, not because he didn't know better.
It would have been interesting to have some like Terry Gilliam direct those movies. I remember reading somewhere that he was Rowling's first choice, but the American producers objected. Dunno if that is true though.

[lukeottevanger]

Come on, you didn't the think the Tarzan movie with Bo Derek was an epic filmic masterwork? 

I also agree with what that author said. Not so much about the "painting by numbers" or not, but about that that first movie directed by Chris Columbus was just totally unoriginal, mainstream, uninteresting, safe, too tailored to the very narrow expectations of the American mainstream audience (which also explains why you thought it was so good  ) to be interesting as a film as such.

Just FWIW Mark Kermode is a rado and TV film critic, not an author - certainly the best known film critic in Britain, and a compulsive listen even for someone like me who doesn't see that many films (I believe the podcast of his film reviews is or was the second most downloaded podcast in the world!). 'Painting by numbers' and the rest of it was my interpretation of his views, but I think it's quite accurate, having made a point of listening to his reveiws faithfully every week for two or three years now.

[Bogey]

Come on, you didn't the think the Tarzan movie with Bo Derek was an epic filmic masterwork? 

LOL.

Come on, you didn't the think the Tarzan movie with Bo Derek was an epic filmic masterwork?  

I also agree with what that author said. Not so much about the "painting by numbers" or not, but about that that first movie directed by Chris Columbus was just totally unoriginal, mainstream, uninteresting, safe, too tailored to the very narrow expectations of the American mainstream audience (which also explains why you thought it was so good   ) to be interesting as a film as such.

Don't make me go and get a bigger boat.  

[Bogey]

Just finished the Potter disc above....it was decent ride (did enjoy track 20 a bit more than that), but I still enjoy the earlier installments more.

Now, some Goldsmith:

[Senta]

In the tray:

This really is a very good score, and this is still my favorite out of all the Potter films. A shame about the recent ones though - uninvolving, lackluster scores and direction.

I was sucked into watching Azkaban again on TV today and Alfonso Cuaron did such a good job with it, especially navigating with the tricky narrative which included a going back in time sequence. I love his washed out pallete and the more gritty, rundown look of the sets too.

Williams' score makes good use of interesting leitmotives for different characters, and the style of writing runs the gamut, a quaint, Renaissance flavor at times, wistful melodies, and nice percussive/action cues. The choral piece "Double Trouble" is a charming take on the witches' cauldron text from Macbeth.

The first two films are pretty good as well, candy-colored and aimed for a children's audience, and the first score is great, where he basically sets up the main themes that were, and still are, the basis for the following scores.

In recent times, Corigliano and his pupil Elliot Goldenthal have both done very well.

Yeah, they have...funny, I tend to forget about Corigliano's film scores, and likewise with Goldenthal's concert works. Corigliano's score for Red Violin is gorgeous, I believe the recording had Joshua Bell as soloist with the Philharmonia. Altered States is also really cool.

Goldenthal has written some great things for both film and theater in collaboration with his partner, director Julie Taymor, like the score for the film Frida, about Frida Kahlo. Other good scores of his: Batman Forever, Titus, Alien 3, Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. He has a really imaginative, unique, often wacky style of writing, which is quite fun to listen to. Definitely a different style from many film composers.

I would love to hear their recent opera Grendel, the ballet Othello is highly recommendable. I like what I have heard too of his oratorio Fire, Water, Paper, and also the Juan Darien mass.

The unused North score for 2001 reminds me a bit of Jerry Goldsmith's fine Planet of the Apes music. I find it difficult to judge without the visuals and I have the R Strauss/Ligeti/Khachaturian score deeply ingrained in me since I saw the film 8 times in a row at the Odeon Leicester Square in 1968 (on the big screen....those were the days), when I was 13. I wish there was a DVD where you could programme either score to accompany the film, as is the case with the Ron Goodwin/William Walton scores for Battle of Britain (1969).

I still haven't gotten around to hearing the North score, but I have heard some interesting things about it. A lot of people seem to think while it's nice to have and to get to hear, they still prefer Kubrick's choices. I suspect I would as well, actually, I wouldn't change a thing about the original music. I think the music makes the thought-provoking visuals even more so, creating unusual, almost-eerie juxtapositions.

Should you lay the blame on Beethoven because his string quartets don't make good dinner music? Of course not, because that isn't what they were made for. The examples I listed are merely scores that have a high degree of craftsmanship and complement the images they were created for — and really, that is all I expect a film score to be.

Good one Corey. I was amazed to see how long this thread has become. I have seen some of the disagreements above, but it's not like we're trying to compare John Adams to John Williams here, film music is just a completely different medium that has to be judged on its own terms. The process of composition itself is so radically different anyway, usually being done at the behest of a director who has possibly temp tracked the movie with one of your colleagues' scores, or perhaps your own previous work, and he says here, this is what we want. In 6 weeks please? Or often the temp track is classical music - one reason why there is so much reference. And if they don't like what you have written, if it doesn't test well with audiences, they just toss it away and find someone else who will be the yes man. Two notable recent cases where that happened were Gabriel Yared with the movie Troy, and Howard Shore with King Kong.

It is certainly true that most film (or worse, TV) scores do not stand up well on an album. Only, let's say, 10-15% do, and even that might just be too optimistic an estimate. If you judged film music solely by today's standards, the picture would be pretty dire indeed. Orchestral music, if employed at all, is very often limited to a simple, monotonous droning, sustained pedal points that underline moments of suspense e.g. This influence can be more or less attributed to Hans Zimmer and Media Ventures, which is why I think this music "factory" has had such a disastrous impact on film music in general.

There are a few decent Zimmer scores, but most do just plain sound alike due to heavy use of synthesizers and samples, and lots of repetition. For film music lovers, Zimmer is much maligned because his scoring approach seems to be contributing to the downfall of the use of the good old-fashioned symphony orchestra in film music. He runs the scoring house Media Ventures (now called Remote Control, which many find amusing) which employs a stable of young composers, and they seem to receive an almost disproportionate amount of scoring assignments. Their synthesized, cut-and-paste approach allows for quick (and cheaper) assembly-line scoring by committee, with often several working on one film, so an individual voice in the finished product becomes lost.

One reason John Williams continues to be so popular in film music, is that he still writes very well for orchestra, which arguably requires more compositional craftsmanship than programming MIDI samples. A lot of people feel less and less great scores are being written these days, compared to earlier decades, and part of it is nostalgia for the traditional orchestral approach, which John Williams represents. Unfortunately, he is not young anymore, and many of his generation who also still used this style of writing have recently passed away.  There are a few younger composers who show promise though, such as Dario Marianelli, Alexandre Desplat, and Michael Giacchino.

[eyeresist]

No samples, sadly.

[karlhenning]

The music for Brazil is brilliantly suited to the film;  a lot of it is either arrangement of the pop tune which gave the film its title, or orchestral bits taking musical ideas from that tune as material.  (But, of course, there is another score which is not really a composition.)

[sound67]

Not so, Karl.

[karlhenning]

Thos, you apparently have no idea how little your assertions and contradictions mean at this stage.

[ChamberNut]

[sound67]

Yeah, they have...funny, I tend to forget about Corigliano's film scores, and likewise with Goldenthal's concert works. Corigliano's score for Red Violin is gorgeous, I believe the recording had Joshua Bell as soloist with the Philharmonia.

He also premiered the "Red Violin Concerto" derived from the film music. I heard him with Marin Alsop at the Proms, the UK premiere. Gorgeous piece. But, film score wise, I'd say that both Altered States and Revolution (horrible film btw) are the more important.

Goldenthal has written some great things for both film

Like teacher, like student. 

There are a few decent Zimmer scores, but most do just plain sound alike due to heavy use of synthesizers and samples, and lots of repetition. For film music lovers, Zimmer is much maligned because his scoring approach seems to be contributing to the downfall of the use of the good old-fashioned symphony orchestra in film music. He runs the scoring house Media Ventures (now called Remote Control, which many find amusing)

When they rechristen it again, maybe they'll choose Auto Pilot. 

which employs a stable of young composers, and they seem to receive an There are a few younger composers who show promise though, such as Dario Marianelli, Alexandre Desplat, and Michael Giacchino.

Mentioned the exact same names earlier. Shows how few there are ... 

Thomas