Chinese internal affairs

[M forever]

I understand your point well and think you are good-hearted person, you want everyone to be happy, but it is unattainable for many reasons, one being politics.

Words of wisdom from the extensive life experience and studies of the world of a 19-year old...It is also very obvious (and very interesting to see) that you grew up in an environment in which forming and voicing your own opinion was not exactly encouraged. Just accept things the way they are, if somebody says something you don't like, just point the finger back at them, things can't be improved anyway. You are surprisingly young to have arrived at the point already where you just don't give a shit about anything anymore.

[sound67]

f somebody says something you don't like, just point the finger back at them.

This tactic always worked for you. 

[sound67]

Do most westerners know that Hong Kong is largely autonomous and its standards of life and existence of human rights are no different than any other global city in the west? I keep getting the feeling that people seem to think that after 1997, HK just became another city under the "communist" regime. Seriously, it has the world's most capitalist economy (and freest), and is as modern as say, NYC or Paris or London.

Sorry, but that comment won't do. Hong Kong is "independent" in business, not political matters, its "parliament" is nothing but a puppet installed by Beijing.

It has always been the policy of the Beijing CP to allow "free market economy". That doesn't mean it's a free city politically. The rationale behind it is if people are getting more wealthy, they'd stop asking for more democracy. In China, that seems to have worked so far - and why shouldn't it? I've been working with many, many Chinese people in business affairs, and privately. All they do think about is money - all the time. 

Thomas

[M forever]

This tact always worked for you. 

This tact?

[sound67]

I'd already corrected it. 

[sound67]

The question is if we want a mediocre world (look at Europe) where anaesthesia is the biggest value, consensus is the god, where the middle class has to settle enormous payments in order to keep anything quiet.

Yeah, right. That certainly outweighs the trivial matter that this "anaesthesia" has prevented European democracies from going to war against each other for a longer time than in any other period of history before. 

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time" (Winston Churchill)

[bwv 1080]

As I posted in another thread, there are 37 million people in the USA that live below the poverty line, about 12%. For example, 12% of the Chinese 1,321,851,888 is 158,622,226. Indeed, a lot.

no comparison when the US poverty line is well above China's per capita income

[Bonehelm]

Sorry, but that comment won't do. Hong Kong is "independent" in business, not political matters, its "parliament" is nothing but a puppet installed by Beijing.

It has always been the policy of the Beijing CP to allow "free market economy". That doesn't mean it's a free city politically. The rationale behind it is if people are getting more wealthy, they'd stop asking for more democracy. In China, that seems to have worked so far - and why shouldn't it? I've been working with many, many Chinese people in business affairs, and privately. All they do think about is money - all the time. 

Thomas

But the freedoms of assembly, religion, speech, etc etc are all there. The quality of life is as good as any other global city. Have you lived there for 7 years like I have, sound67?

[greg]

Do most westerners know that Hong Kong is largely autonomous and its standards of life and existence of human rights are no different than any other global city in the west? I keep getting the feeling that people seem to think that after 1997, HK just became another city under the "communist" regime. Seriously, it has the world's most capitalist economy (and freest), and is as modern as say, NYC or Paris or London.

Well, what are the effects of the place being communist? Is it, in truth, not bad at all, and pretty free over there besides minor restrictions?
Is it just that Americans get the wrong impression because whenever we hear the word "Communism", immediately Russia and the Cold War pops into mind first, before every thing else? So I'm assuming living in China now must be much much better than living in Russia back in the day?

[Bonehelm]

Well, what are the effects of the place being communist? Is it, in truth, not bad at all, and pretty free over there besides minor restrictions?
Is it just that Americans get the wrong impression because whenever we hear the word "Communism", immediately Russia and the Cold War pops into mind first, before every thing else? So I'm assuming living in China now must be much much better than living in Russia back in the day?

I have never lived in mainland China so I won't comment on the quality of life there. But in HK, it is as good as any global city in the west, I can assure you that. I lived in HK for 7 years, Toronto for 5, and Vancouver for 4 (and still counting...). In fact, it is better than Canada in some regards. Of course, Canada is also better in some other ways or else I wouldn't be living here right now.

But it is true that many westerners immediately think of Cold war and Stalin whenever they hear "communism". Wake up, people. Especially when that is related to HK in some ways. Don't make retarded statements like that if you haven't actually LIVED there and experienced life there, please. China is growing rapidly, perhaps faster than any country when they first developed, and HK is, along with Shanghai, the most modern, advanced and beautiful cities there. I have been to both.

P.S. I admire Greg because he is willing to learn about other cultures, as evident by his Chinese and Japanese studies. He hasn't made any generalizing, ignorant and blatantly discriminatory comments many people have about other cultures before studying them. If only everyone would learn to be like him and respect others as much as themselves...

[greg]

I have never lived in mainland China so I won't comment on the quality of life there. But in HK, it is as good as any global city in the west, I can assure you that. I lived in HK for 7 years, Toronto for 5, and Vancouver for 4 (and still counting...). In fact, it is better than Canada in some regards. Of course, Canada is also better in some other ways or else I wouldn't be living here right now.

awesome.

But it is true that many westerners immediately think of Cold war and Stalin whenever they hear "communism". Wake up, people. Especially when that is related to HK in some ways. Don't make retarded statements like that if you haven't actually LIVED there and experienced life there, please. China is growing rapidly, perhaps faster than any country when they first developed, and HK is, along with Shanghai, the most modern, advanced and beautiful cities there. I have been to both.

I think I know why. In school, when we learn about Communism, we mostly just study Russia- and don't go into too much detail, even then. We don't learn anything about modern China or other communist countries like Cuba or North Korea. We just get general impressions from the media, and i think they're using it now to inform the public about a country that most people don't know much about besides a few of the basics. I like the Chinese lessons they have on NBC- the lady that does it, she's seems nice and all, but I just have to laugh. Something funny about it.

P.S. I admire Greg because he is willing to learn about other cultures, as evident by his Chinese and Japanese studies. He hasn't made any generalizing, ignorant and blatantly discriminatory comments many people have about other cultures before studying them. If only everyone would learn to be like him and respect others as much as themselves...

I try not make too many "general" comments, if I can. Or if I do, hopefully, i say something like "i hear"/"based on the little i've read, i get the impression"/whatever.....
But yeah, other cultures are fascinating to me. Just a week ago, i checked out a course on German and am trying to learn what little i can. It's actually a pretty fun language to pronounce, although i bet learning the big words would be a headache at first. I would probably devote all my studies to world history and languages if I weren't interested in so much other stuff, so i probably won't learn too much because of that 

[Bonehelm]

Yeah, I feel lucky to have the opportunity to live in both the West and the East, and learn about both, whether in culture, history, politics or whatever. There are people that I know from both sides that are just ignorant about the other. I wish I could convince them that you really have to have  lived in a place to truly learn about it.

[Lilas Pastia]

Nope, that is not what I meant. I meant that he is a typical mindless and blind Westerner. Of course not all westerners are mindless and blind. If I meant that, that would make me stereotypical too. If you actually read my other post in this very thread, you can see that I'm against westerners making stereotypes towards the east and vice versa.

Of course I read your posts. And it's precisely because of that that I thought you should be alerted to a rather poor choice of words. I'm sure you didn't mean that kind of generalization. But if we have to figure it out by reading between the lines and assuming what you mean instead of what you actually write, it does not help conduct an informed discussion. Personally I have no opinion on the subject other than a long held one about the present being in continuity with the past. IOW it's up to the chinese people to figure out what society they want to live in. That's where history and culture come into play, and that's a collective internal state of mind.

[Sarastro]

Words of wisdom from the extensive life experience and studies of the world of a 19-year old...

It is Leo Toltsoy.

forming and voicing your own opinion was not exactly encouraged

One again you are talking about things you know absolutely nothing about. Who told you that, M? If you do not trust me, I insist you read posts #65 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg217780.html#msg217780) and #78 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg218176.html#msg218176) by an American in Russia, he assures the opposite to you.

else I wouldn't be living here right now.

It is because you have no other choice except returning to the poor communistic Hong Kong which is ruled by a bunch of thugs.

Don't make retarded statements like that if you haven't actually LIVED there and experienced life there, please.
I wish I could convince them that you really have to have  lived in a place to truly learn about it.

Exactly my point, but some people here are completely dim, and the first association with "communism" is Stalin's Russia. In this case Communism is confused with Leninism and Stalinism.

[Bonehelm]

It is Leo Toltsoy.

One again you are talking about things you know absolutely nothing about. Who told you that, M? If you do not trust me, I insist you read posts #65 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg217780.html#msg217780) and #78 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg218176.html#msg218176) by an American in Russia, he assures the opposite to you.



It is because you have no other choice except returning to the poor communistic Hong Kong which is ruled by a bunch of thugs.

Exactly my point, but some people here are completely dim, and the first association with "communism" is Stalin's Russia. In this case Communism is confused with Leninism and Stalinism.

Very funny 

[Sarastro]

Very funny 

Not, it's not! You just have no clue what's going on there! Totalitarian government takes people's lives away, shuts down all the non-governmental publishers, and for some reason the stupid population elects those thugs again and again! The poverty level is beyond your wildest guess, crimes walk the streets and kill innocent civilians, it is, frankly speaking, the most disgusting place on the Earth. Moreover, it's hard to sell them our crap.

But some of Hong Kong'ers wear Manolo Blahnik shoes (hopefully real and not counterfeit), Vivienne Westwood dresses, Christian Louboutin accessories, and buy Givenchy cosmetics, that's really a step up into the Civilized World. I learned it from a commercial between my evening house-wife talk-shows.



Disclaimer: I didn't intend to offend anyone, just experimented with M's tactics.

[Sarastro]

no comparison when the US poverty line is well above China's per capita income

Maybe they have different prices?

[Bonehelm]

I nominate Sarastro's last post as GMG's Funniest Post of The Year.  0:) 0:) 0:)

[knight66]

Sarastro and Bonehelm, I have only one issue I want to pick up with you, especially since you are backing one another up in it. That is your suggestion that you have to have lived somewhere to have a legitimate profound opinion about it.

That would exclude almost everyone from commenting about most places. You both have a great advantage and we are very interested in your fix; which is gained at first hand. But, others of us can form legitimate opinions based on comparisons between wherever they live and being intelligent about the sources they use in order to learn about other countries.

Taking your own stricture to the extreme, we cannot even learn from you....since most of us have not lived in Hong Kong or Russia. Using your own argument against you, neither of you will have a legitimate opinion on the UK....unless you come here to live. I don't buy into that idea.

Another angle on it: the opening line from the book The Go-Between is, "The past is another country, they do things differently there." And that is very true. So, to know anything about history, we need to rely on a combination of eye witness accounts and other evidence plus the informed opinion of scholars. Again, extending your argument, we might as well forget about trying to understand any history, none of us were there for most of it.

Again I don't buy into that.

Sarastro, when I was reading the post you attributed to the M technique; I had assumed you were successfully channelling Bunny; well done either way.

Mike

[Florestan]

Great post, Mike!