music in peace and war

[zamyrabyrd]

Can music make peace? Or is it just prostitution and self-promotion?

Is there any need or justification for bringing over a full orchestra to South Ossetia to play Tschaikovsky's Pathétique Symphony when such large amounts of money could be spent instead for refugees and rehabilitation?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4579829.ece

Has music been used more for war than peace, or for propaganda rather than individual expression?

Tschaikovsky himself is a good case in point since he followed the century old tradition of pre-empting the Polish Polonaise to glorify Russian power.

Cultural Imperialism?

ZB

[drogulus]

     Where's the dividing line between self expression and propaganda? Shostakovich (Leningrad Symphony) and Vaughan Williams (Sinfonia Antartica) show that self-expression and propaganda are not mutually exclusive. They were perhaps genuinely inspired by the horrific circumstances that also served as instances of propaganda. I'm sure RVW was, whose nationalism was a principle. Shostakovich is of course a different kind of case, living under a coercive regime in wartime conditions. But even then can you say no genuine personal inspiration was involved? How do you decide that?

[zamyrabyrd]

 Shostakovich is of course a different kind of case, living under a coercive regime in wartime conditions. But even then can you say no genuine personal inspiration was involved? How do you decide that?

Nationalism in music like the nation-state is quite a 19th century invention. It's not so much that personal inspiration is less or more but how it is used by the powers that be.

ZB

[jochanaan]

Can music make peace? Or is it just prostitution and self-promotion?

Is there any need or justification for bringing over a full orchestra to South Ossetia to play Tschaikovsky's Pathétique Symphony when such large amounts of money could be spent instead for refugees and rehabilitation?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4579829.ece

Has music been used more for war than peace, or for propaganda rather than individual expression?

Tschaikovsky himself is a good case in point since he followed the century old tradition of pre-empting the Polish Polonaise to glorify Russian power.

Cultural Imperialism?

ZB

*sigh* It sure looks like it here.  If the authorities who arranged/approved this concert, they would have played music by Russian and Georgian composers on the same program.  Even something by Khachaturian would have done more for true peace.

Like Jesus, music too often brings "not peace, but a sword."

[drogulus]

Nationalism in music like the nation-state is quite a 19th century invention. It's not so much that personal inspiration is less or more but how it is used by the powers that be.

ZB

     Then I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying music serves bad causes? I agree it can be made to do that. Does it cease therefore to be art? I don't see how, if it's art, the use of it changes that, though Wagner, for example, may be difficult or even impossible to listen to because of the uses made of his music. That's entirely understandable.

     

*sigh* It sure looks like it here.  If the authorities who arranged/approved this concert, they would have played music by Russian and Georgian composers on the same program.  Even something by Khachaturian would have done more for true peace.

Like Jesus, music too often brings "not peace, but a sword."

    Sometimes you don't know when to send food and medicine, or military aid, or a symphony orchestra, or some combination. I've heard that some people in war zones want nothing more than a reminder of beauty and civilization. I'd send food first, though, or other material help.

    This may not have been the right time for music by a Russian composer. That kind of utopian flattening of distinctions wouldn't have been wise when Auschwitz was liberated, would it? It's not always a good idea to remind the refugees in these situations that their conquerors are "just like them". Maybe later, though.

[eyeresist]

Tschaikovsky himself is a good case in point since he followed the century old tradition of pre-empting the Polish Polonaise to glorify Russian power.

What a bastard!

If the authorities who arranged/approved this concert, they would have played music by Russian and Georgian composers on the same program.  Even something by Khachaturian would have done more for true peace.

I don't remember if Britain banned Beethoven for the duration of WW2 (seems unlikely), but I've read that Vaughan Williams became composer non grata in the Reich due to his assistance of refugees.

[zamyrabyrd]

     Then I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying music serves bad causes? I agree it can be made to do that. Does it cease therefore to be art? I don't see how, if it's art, the use of it changes that, though Wagner, for example, may be difficult or even impossible to listen to because of the uses made of his music. That's entirely understandable.
     
    Sometimes you don't know when to send food and medicine, or military aid, or a symphony orchestra, or some combination. I've heard that some people in war zones want nothing more than a reminder of beauty and civilization. I'd send food first, though, or other material help.

    This may not have been the right time for music by a Russian composer. That kind of utopian flattening of distinctions wouldn't have been wise when Auschwitz was liberated, would it? It's not always a good idea to remind the refugees in these situations that their conquerors are "just like them". Maybe later, though.

Music is essentially about itself--self-referential--so being transcendent, it cannot serve material causes. The problem is text and cultural uses attached to it, although in the Middle Ages it didn't bother composers using the same music for sacred or profane purposes.

Toscanini refused to conduct Giovinezza, the Fascist hymn, and paid heavily for it while still living in Italy.  But without the words, it is just la-la. This is the problem with Wagner since he supported the texts of his operas with his voluminous writings. And he DID have a political agenda based on racial superiority. I was shocked while doing research for a paper on Parsifal many years ago. Hopefully, in time a kind of pentimento will happen, the political paint will fall off and only the good parts, the structure, will remain.

But more to my original point, music these days seem to be a self-promotional vehicle for some people who also want to push a political agenda, whether "making peace through music" (pass the vomit bag) or supporting the Russian incursion into Georgia by playing Tschaikovsky in the ruins of apartment buildings.

The latter seems to be really perverse as it is not bringing the comfort of music to suffering people but a huge photo op. The Russians caused far more damage and distress there, so they are more similar to the people Toscanini didn't want to play for.

ZB

[val]

Regarding "war music" my favorite is Janequin's Song "La Bataille de Marignan". In part it is the celebration of a French victory (no one composes music about defeats of his own country) but it is also an extraordinary pretext for vocal and polyphonic virtuosity. This song influenced composers from all countries for more than a century.

[drogulus]

Music is essentially about itself--self-referential--so being transcendent, it cannot serve material causes. The problem is text and cultural uses attached to it, although in the Middle Ages it didn't bother composers using the same music for sacred or profane purposes.

Toscanini refused to conduct Giovinezza, the Fascist hymn, and paid heavily for it while still living in Italy.  But without the words, it is just la-la. This is the problem with Wagner since he supported the texts of his operas with his voluminous writings. And he DID have a political agenda based on racial superiority. I was shocked while doing research for a paper on Parsifal many years ago. Hopefully, in time a kind of pentimento will happen, the political paint will fall off and only the good parts, the structure, will remain.

But more to my original point, music these days seem to be a self-promotional vehicle for some people who also want to push a political agenda, whether "making peace through music" (pass the vomit bag) or supporting the Russian incursion into Georgia by playing Tschaikovsky in the ruins of apartment buildings.

The latter seems to be really perverse as it is not bringing the comfort of music to suffering people but a huge photo op. The Russians caused far more damage and distress there, so they are more similar to the people Toscanini didn't want to play for.

ZB

   

ZB, thanks for the clarification. The Wagner example I gave was not a good one for the reason you gave. I think we agree for the most part.

[Lethevich]

I don't remember if Britain banned Beethoven for the duration of WW2 (seems unlikely)

The 5th symphony was used constantly in contexts of "resistance" by the allies IIRC.

[zamyrabyrd]

The 5th symphony was used constantly in contexts of "resistance" by the allies IIRC.

The opening bars corresponded to the Morse Code for the letter V. dot-dot-dot-dash, so this became a symbol for "victory", used by the BBC in opening its news broadcasts.

[m_gigena]

Regarding "war music" (...)

The Radetzky March.

[eyeresist]

The 5th symphony was used constantly in contexts of "resistance" by the allies IIRC.

Actually, I think it was Universal Studios who used music based on the 5th over their studio logo at the beginning films during the war - I think because dit dit dit dah is Morse code for "V" (for victory).

[Lethevich]

Actually, I think it was Universal Studios who used music based on the 5th over their studio logo at the beginning films during the war

Indeedie, but the UK used it too, so I figured it was universal (lower case ):

"The BBC launched a "V for Victory" campaign in July 1941. Listeners were asked to demonstrate their support for the Allies by chalking up the letter V wherever and whenever they could. People all over occupied Europe were urged to display the letter V and beat out the V sound in Morse Code (three dots and a dash).

It was soon realised that the three short notes and one long at the start of Beethoven's Fifth echoed the Morse code for "victory". The V sound on drums immediately became the call sign of all the BBC's European services."

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/Homework/war/campaigns.htm

[eyeresist]

Interesting, thanks. Didn't mean to imply that Universal Studios was THE usage of Beethoven 5.

I recently watched a knock-off DVD called "The warden says...", which contained British domestic propaganda films from WW2. I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but I think I did hear the motif played on tuned timpani a couple of times.

[M forever]

"The BBC launched a "V for Victory" campaign in July 1941. Listeners were asked to demonstrate their support for the Allies by chalking up the letter V wherever and whenever they could. People all over occupied Europe were urged to display the letter V and beat out the V sound in Morse Code (three dots and a dash).

Did they also encourage people in the British "colonies" and "zones of influence" to demonstrate their desire for independence and self-government by displaying the letter V and beating it out in Morse Code?

[Lethevich]

Did they also encourage people in the British "colonies" and "zones of influence" to demonstrate their desire for independence and self-government by displaying the letter V and beating it out in Morse Code?

God knows. I presume the Nazi threat was somewhat less pressing in, say, Canada, so I doubt it would've been quite so popular...

Edit: Disregard, seems that I misread. Perhaps I had my sass-o-meter turned off.

[Maciek]

Ha, ha, ha.

And why do I always find these threads so late? Have to say that that concert totally put me off Gergiev when I read about it back then. (Luckily, I only have one Gergiev recording anyway. )

[zamyrabyrd]

And why do I always find these threads so late? Have to say that that concert totally put me off Gergiev when I read about it back then. (Luckily, I only have one Gergiev recording anyway. )

I was wondering why this thread came up again and then remembered: oh I started it.

Anyway, I was disappointed to read that Polonaises by Russian composers were a kind of "in your face". I like the one from Onegin, though, as music.

Last year I had to do a lot of reading for the class I teach, so was fascinated by the seesawing of Beethoven around his Eroica Symphony. The traditional view is he "ripped off the dedication" but a lot of evidence seems to support that he would have gladly supported Napoleon had he succeeded. But he made loads of money from Wellington's Victory anyhow. 

By the 1820's sentiments such as "Ode to Joy" or any other highly idealistic Revolutionary paeans were definitely out of sync.  After the turn of the century, Beethoven rued the taste of Viennese for comic opera.

And now supposedly there is a 10 year old youth orchestra traversing Europe showing how they "make peace" with each other through music. I happen to be a witness of such attention getting that turns out to be self-serving most of the time, and an excellent magnet for cash subsidies.

ZB

[Roy Bland]

IMHO IT
https://www.rtbf.be/article/les-grandes-batailles-en-musique-11038070