Visionaries Debate

[greg]

No Schoenberg?

well, no one was as "visionary as he was"  ......
he was the dude that felt wind from other planets..... 

[Chaszz]

Composing music is not a sport, where competitors are pitted against one another to produce a winner and a loser. This thing lacks sense, dignity and taste.

In sports, competitors try to prevent their opponents from scoring, and try to take advantage of their opponents' weaknesses. Perhaps Bach can attack Handel's tendencies toward simpler, more vertical music with a heavy volley of counterpoint, while Beethoven can attack Mozart's sometime tendency toward prettiness with a good dose of sturm und drang. 

What nonsense. 

A good case for reducing the BBC's budget. It's tough times now in the world economy, and a lot of unemployment. The idiots who put this together should be on the jobless line, rather than wasting good working peoples' hard-earned taxes to come up with this garbage. I'm so disturbed by governemt funds going for this I would almost become a British citizen to rail against it.

[drogulus]

I nominate Edgard Varèse as the greatest visionary among composers.  More than any other early 20th-century composer, he emancipated music from the rules which, though established for good purposes, had become too limiting.  He imagined a music without bounds, and showed how it would sound.  Thanks to him and a few others like him, any sound can now become music.

     

[eyeresist]

I nominate Edgard Varèse as the greatest visionary among composers.  More than any other early 20th-century composer, he emancipated music from the rules which, though established for good purposes, had become too limiting.  He imagined a music without bounds, and showed how it would sound.  Thanks to him and a few others like him, any sound can now become music.

*Raises rump for a moment*

I just made some music! 



It's an oldy but a goody.

[CRCulver]

A good case for reducing the BBC's budget. It's tough times now in the world economy, and a lot of unemployment. The idiots who put this together should be on the jobless line, rather than wasting good working peoples' hard-earned taxes to come up with this garbage. I'm so disturbed by governemt funds going for this I would almost become a British citizen to rail against it.

Isn't the BBC funded from television licence fees that people voluntarily pay than by general taxes?

[Ten thumbs]

If any sound can now become music, how can there be any visionaries in the future?
I like the idea of Mozart v. Beethoven. Mozart would have probably been amused himself at being considered a visionary.
How about Scriabin and his Mysterium? He wanted to go beyond sound to all the senses.

[Mark G. Simon]

I literally marvel at the fact that, not only do I learn something new about these last six operas every time I listen to them ...,

I continually marvel at the beauty and aristocratic sensuality of...

Hey, has anyone seen AndyD. and Pink Harp together in the same room?

(Andy, I share your enthusiasm for Wagner, especially Parsifal)

[karlhenning]

Italicized marveling . . . danger, Will Robinson!

[Chaszz]

Isn't the BBC funded from television licence fees that people voluntarily pay than by general taxes?

Yes. Would you consider a television "license fee" a voluntary fee, when you had to do without television if you didn't pay it?

[marvinbrown]

I can see where people might not like Wagner much. It can be daunting for many folks to get past some of the more "recitative" parts of his operas. What I really mean is, I can't entirely blame folks for only dealing with Wagner via highlights cds and the like. I actually had to take some time out of my daily life (not some really, alot), in order to fully "get" the Wagner operas on a more inward level.

It's my opinion (and perhaps yours as well) that the last six Wagner operas, but most particularly the Ring, Tristan und Isolde, and Parsifal, are the greatest works of art in Western civilisation's history. But that really is only my opinion and nothing more. I literally marvel at the fact that, not only do I learn something new about these last six operas every time I listen to them, but in fact I learn something new about myself and society (from an Archeytpal standpoint) each time as well.

As many GmG-ers already know, Wagner chose the "fantasy" elements in order to be more broad in the definitions of what his operas meant. One can apply the plot devices (most certainly including their interplay with the musical motifs), extensive characterizations,  etc.  within the operas to multitudinal models useful in taking perspectives on the "big picture" of life.

Or one can use them to cure insomnia (laughing) 0:). To each his or her own. I certainly wouldn't want to give up Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Schumann, Grieg, LVB, Mahler, or Bruckner. But I personally would drop all of them if faced with a desert island scenario with a lifetime battery charged television, cd player and a Wagner collection to shame Sarge's. One can gain something from his music with each listen. I'm not saying other composers don't have that quality. But Wagner included the human voice most effectively as part of the orchestra...this I find worthy of my deepest admiration.

Again, this is me, and I respect others' opinions on the matter. And I like to laugh with people whom just don't seem to care for Wagner, because I hate taking anything too seriously. I noticed that when I do the latter, I end up miserable, and nothing is worth that, right?

  A wonderfull post Andy  .  I really enjoyed reading that.  You're right Wagner takes a rather long time to appreciate and fully grasp but he is worth every effort.  Also I agree with you that there is no point in taking anything in life too seriously, save one's health and his/her relationship/s with love ones.

  Back to the topic at hand, there better be an episode on Wagner in that BBC series.   Other than that I will be looking out for the Mozart/Beethoven episode.  That should be an interesting comparison.  Once again Verdi vs. Chopin eludes me  , can't see how those two composers are going to be compared in any way  !

  marvin

[Haffner]

Hey, has anyone seen AndyD. and Pink Harp together in the same room?

(Andy, I share your enthusiasm for Wagner, especially Parsifal)

lol Ahhh...the day Pink Harp and I can get together and Marvel thr'out the day....


At times Parsifal usurps even The Ring... as my favorite opera, ever.

[Haffner]

Italicized marveling . . . danger, Will Robinson!

I'm a lost space-case.

[ChamberNut]

At times Parsifal usurps even The Ring... as my favorite opera, ever.

I am surprised to hear this!  Although, I've only listened to Parsifal once in its entirety.  For me, it's still Siegfried, especially the Solti/WP.

[Haffner]

I am surprised to hear this!  Although, I've only listened to Parsifal once in its entirety.  For me, it's still Siegfried, especially the Solti/WP.

The Stein/Bayreuth Parsifal dvd remains a religious experience for me. The Knap cds as well.

LOVE the Solti Siegfried!

[mahler10th]

Quote from: AndyD. on 01 September 2008, 23:55:56

I can see where people might not like Wagner much. It can be daunting for many folks to get past some of the more "recitative" parts of his operas. What I really mean is, I can't entirely blame folks for only dealing with Wagner via highlights cds and the like. I actually had to take some time out of my daily life (not some really, alot), in order to fully "get" the Wagner operas on a more inward level.

It's my opinion (and perhaps yours as well) that the last six Wagner operas, but most particularly the Ring, Tristan und Isolde, and Parsifal, are the greatest works of art in Western civilisation's history. But that really is only my opinion and nothing more. I literally marvel at the fact that, not only do I learn something new about these last six operas every time I listen to them, but in fact I learn something new about myself and society (from an Archeytpal standpoint) each time as well.

As many GmG-ers already know, Wagner chose the "fantasy" elements in order to be more broad in the definitions of what his operas meant. One can apply the plot devices (most certainly including their interplay with the musical motifs), extensive characterizations,  etc.  within the operas to multitudinal models useful in taking perspectives on the "big picture" of life.

Or one can use them to cure insomnia (laughing) . To each his or her own. I certainly wouldn't want to give up Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Schumann, Grieg, LVB, Mahler, or Bruckner. But I personally would drop all of them if faced with a desert island scenario with a lifetime battery charged television, cd player and a Wagner collection to shame Sarge's. One can gain something from his music with each listen. I'm not saying other composers don't have that quality. But Wagner included the human voice most effectively as part of the orchestra...this I find worthy of my deepest admiration.

Again, this is me, and I respect others' opinions on the matter. And I like to laugh with people whom just don't seem to care for Wagner, because I hate taking anything too seriously. I noticed that when I do the latter, I end up miserable, and nothing is worth that, right?

This is quite the considered and interetsing post that will make me actually listen to a Wagner opera in it's entireity.
I may thank you or curse you as a result.     Now I have to go and find one...all I've got are the highlights, etc., but not one complete Wagner work...

[Haffner]

This is quite the considered and interetsing post that will make me actually listen to a Wagner opera in it's entireity.
I may thank you or curse you as a result.     Now I have to go and find one...all I've got are the highlights, etc., but not one complete Wagner work...

You just might curse me yet (laughing). But don't give up if you get really daunted the first time all the way through. If you do get frustrated, I've found that putting the opera aside for a few months is the perfect cure. You'll end up wanting to go back and give it another try.

Trust me, the ultimate pay off is the kind of thing that just keeps giving.

Or not  . Some people end up never really liking Wagner. Everyone's different, right?

[ChamberNut]

This is quite the considered and interetsing post that will make me actually listen to a Wagner opera in it's entireity.
I may thank you or curse you as a result.     Now I have to go and find one...all I've got are the highlights, etc., but not one complete Wagner work...

Mahler10th, may I suggest that you listen in small chunks?  If, for example, you start off with The Ring operas, listen to one Act at a time, or you can even break it down in smaller chunks and listen to a scene at a time.  Then take a break.

Honestly, if you can get a hold of the very famous Solti/Wiener Philharmonic set, and start off with all the various Preludes, you may be hooked just from that! 

[Haffner]

Mahler10th, may I suggest that you listen in small chunks?  If, for example, you start off with The Ring operas, listen to one Act at a time, or you can even break it down in smaller chunks and listen to a scene at a time.  Then take a break.

Honestly, if you can get a hold of the very famous Solti/Wiener Philharmonic set, and start off with all the various Preludes, you may be hooked just from that! 

I've tried this route, and it does work great. It's how I managed to "conquer" the Ring. For me, eventually I was able to "deal with" the longer, recitative-ish parts and thus absorb the whole more easily.

[mahler10th]

Thank

Mahler10th, may I suggest that you listen in small chunks?  If, for example, you start off with The Ring operas, listen to one Act at a time, or you can even break it down in smaller chunks and listen to a scene at a time.  Then take a break.

Honestly, if you can get a hold of the very famous Solti/Wiener Philharmonic set, and start off with all the various Preludes, you may be hooked just from that! 

Thank you guys.  I will sieze upon the Solti...surely the old Hungarian Master won't cost too much these days...this is going to be virry virry interesting...

[Haffner]

Thank
Thank you guys.  I will sieze upon the Solti...surely the old Hungarian Master won't cost too much these days...this is going to be virry virry interesting...

If you have access to the Solti, you won't have to work particularly hard. Despite a few intonation problems (and perhaps a less than perfect Die Walkure...for that I strongly reccomend the Karajan and/or the Keilberth), the Solti is the tops for the Ring. Again,my opinion.