Frederick Delius

Started by tjguitar, May 14, 2007, 05:44:52 PM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 01, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Johan, let me ask you, why do you think Delius is so unappreciated not only on this forum but abroad?


Good question, and a difficult one, too. You should think the sheer beauty of his music would draw people in... I have a few ideas, but I want to make some coffee first!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Mirror Image

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 11:29:26 AM

Good question, and a difficult one, too. You should think the sheer beauty of his music would draw people in... I have a few ideas, but I want to make some coffee first!

Yes, I'll be waiting for your answer....

J.Z. Herrenberg

1) Musicians don't find him rewarding to play. His music is full of chromatic harmony, so there isn't much independence of line there. In Delius the total effect is what counts, which is magical for us, but less so for the players (it seems).


2) Delius is a cosmopolitan composer, perhaps even the first Western composer of a sort of 'world music'.  His style is a synthesis of German, French, English, Scandinavian and Afro-American music. Though the English have claimed Delius as their own - he was born in Yorkshire after all -, he isn't as English as Elgar is, or Vaughan Williams. He belongs to no single national school.


3) People have negative preconceptions about Delius, based on only a few pieces (Cuckoo, for instance). They see him as the soft, melancholy, nature-adoring dreamer-poet. Of course there is some truth to that. But Delius is so much more. His music is sensuous and sensual, ecstatic, lively, colourful, and though the range of emotions may be restricted, he mines his special vein like no-one else.


4) Delius is an original. His musicial structures are sui generis, his language quasi spontaneous and led by emotion, not intellect. People who like their music to have an analyzable logic, find his music therefore shallow or are incapable of understanding why it moves and develops in the way it does. The stupid word 'meandering' always crops up in this context. If you are on Delius' wave-length his music is perfectly clear and cogent, with not a bar too many, and utterly ravishing.


Long live Frederick Delius!


Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

A good point.It's the same with Bax. If you like his music,it doesn't meander. And,to be honest,I can think of allot of more highly rated music that meanders more than Bax. Well,at least to my ears. Also,like Delius his muse was emotional. I don't think he was particularly interested in structure in the way Sibelius was,for example.
Anyway,as they say,back to Delius!

Mirror Image

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 11:54:40 AM
1) Musicians don't find him rewarding to play. His music is full of chromatic harmony, so there isn't much independence of line there. In Delius the total effect is what counts, which is magical for us, but less so for the players (it seems).


2) Delius is a cosmopolitan composer, perhaps even the first Western composer of a sort of 'world music'.  His style is a synthesis of German, French, English, Scandinavian and Afro-American music. Though the English have claimed Delius as their own - he was born in Yorkshire after all -, he isn't as English as Elgar is, or Vaughan Williams. He belongs to no single national school.


3) People have negative preconceptions about Delius, based on only a few pieces (Cuckoo, for instance). They see him as the soft, melancholy, nature-adoring dreamer-poet. Of course there is some truth to that. But Delius is so much more. His music is sensuous and sensual, ecstatic, lively, colourful, and though the range of emotions may be restricted, he mines his special vein like no-one else.


4) Delius is an original. His musicial structures are sui generis, his language quasi spontaneous and led by emotion, not intellect. People who like their music to have an analyzable logic, find his music therefore shallow or are incapable of understanding why it moves and develops in the way it does. The stupid word 'meandering' always crops up in this context. If you are on Delius' wave-length his music is perfectly clear and cogent, with not a bar too many, and utterly ravishing.


Long live Frederick Delius!

Very well argued, Johan, and you are right on all points I think. If people would listen to the music on its own terms and not their own, then maybe there would be more of a fighting chance for his music to win over more listeners. When I listen to Delius, he puts me into a completely different place altogether. All of my troubles, cares, etc. have all been washed away. People, like you said, only hear a few works, which most of them hear works like The Walk to the Paradise Garden or Summer Night on the River. These are nice works but, they simply don't want to understand the music and try and get inside of it or even move on from there. Once they move on, they will discover there's more to Delius than shimmering harmonies. There is a whole plethora of musical gems to discover.

cilgwyn

His best music has a mysterious,enigmatic quality. (I particularly like listening to it late at night). Like Koechlin's Persian Hours,there's far more to Delius's tone poems than 'musical postcards',despite the names. They are also very concise,not a note wasted. Mini- marvels,to be precise!

By,the way,what do you think of his 'Song of the high hills',which is a work which doesn't get mentioned quite so much & apparently,the closest Delius ever got to composing a symphony. I may be wrong,but I seem to have read somewhere that it was not a Beecham favourite?

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 01:42:00 PM
His best music has a mysterious,enigmatic quality. (I particularly like listening to it late at night). Like Koechlin's Persian Hours,there's far more to Delius's tone poems than 'musical postcards',despite the names. They are also very concise,not a note wasted. Mini- marvels,to be precise!

By,the way,what do you think of his 'Song of the high hills',which is a work which doesn't get mentioned quite so much & apparently,the closest Delius ever got to composing a symphony. I may be wrong,but I seem to have read somewhere that it was not a Beecham favourite?


Listening to Brigg Fair under Beecham at the moment... Song of the High Hills (which I have in score, too) is a strange piece. It is rather cool and unapproachable, I find, like the high hills it depicts. Still, it has one of the most 'mystical' choral passages in the whole of Delius.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Mirror Image

Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 01:42:00 PM
His best music has a mysterious,enigmatic quality. (I particularly like listening to it late at night). Like Koechlin's Persian Hours,there's far more to Delius's tone poems than 'musical postcards',despite the names. They are also very concise,not a note wasted. Mini- marvels,to be precise!

By,the way,what do you think of his 'Song of the high hills',which is a work which doesn't get mentioned quite so much & apparently,the closest Delius ever got to composing a symphony. I may be wrong,but I seem to have read somewhere that it was not a Beecham favourite?

Song of the High Hills is on my to-listen-to list right now. I'll probably listen to it next. I've been wanting to hear it for quite some time.

cilgwyn

I have the Unicorn recording,which may,or may not,be the best way to hear this work. I'll pop it on tonight!

Dundonnell

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 11:54:40 AM
1) Musicians don't find him rewarding to play. His music is full of chromatic harmony, so there isn't much independence of line there. In Delius the total effect is what counts, which is magical for us, but less so for the players (it seems).


2) Delius is a cosmopolitan composer, perhaps even the first Western composer of a sort of 'world music'.  His style is a synthesis of German, French, English, Scandinavian and Afro-American music. Though the English have claimed Delius as their own - he was born in Yorkshire after all -, he isn't as English as Elgar is, or Vaughan Williams. He belongs to no single national school.


3) People have negative preconceptions about Delius, based on only a few pieces (Cuckoo, for instance). They see him as the soft, melancholy, nature-adoring dreamer-poet. Of course there is some truth to that. But Delius is so much more. His music is sensuous and sensual, ecstatic, lively, colourful, and though the range of emotions may be restricted, he mines his special vein like no-one else.


4) Delius is an original. His musicial structures are sui generis, his language quasi spontaneous and led by emotion, not intellect. People who like their music to have an analyzable logic, find his music therefore shallow or are incapable of understanding why it moves and develops in the way it does. The stupid word 'meandering' always crops up in this context. If you are on Delius' wave-length his music is perfectly clear and cogent, with not a bar too many, and utterly ravishing.


Long live Frederick Delius!

To be pedantic....."meandering" is not a "stupid word" ;D It may be used inappropriately to describe a reaction by the listener to the music, although again, that is a subjective judgment based upon one's reaction to the music; a subjective judgment both by the listener who uses the descriptive word and the listener who finds the word inappropriate and misleading as a description ;D ;D

I shall repeat what I have said before: I have 17 cds on my shelves containing all of Delius's orchestral and choral music committed to cd. And yes, I shall concede that this is partly or even mainly because as a strong supporter of the cause of British music and as a collector I simply "have to have" any or all British orchestral music available to listen to if the mood takes me.

But the mood does not take me back to Delius very often or at all :( Now this may be because I am not listening to it "properly" (whatever that may mean) or I am not "looking for the right things" in the music, I am the victim of my own pre-conceptions, or whatever other deficiencies in my approach to musical appreciation you care to identify.

No doubt, therefore, the 'fault' lies with me rather with Frederick Delius as a composer. I have never argued that Delius was a 'poor' composer. That would be an absurd assertion to make. Clearly he was a composer of unique ability. Perhaps he could even be regarded as a 'musical genius', whatever that may mean or signify. And if I were to spend weeks, months, years immersing myself in his music maybe, just maybe it would all click into place for me ???

....but life is short, there is so much music discovered and undiscovered, sung and unsung, which really appeals to me or would almost certainly do so and I cannot help continuing to pursue a search for that type of music. That is the sort of musical listener I am :) The music of Frederick Delius-in the main, there are a few exceptions-does not strike the requisite chords in my musical psyche and never has. As a teenager I was given an LP with on one side the Samuel Barber Violin Concerto and on the other, the Delius Violin Concerto. The Barber immediately struck with its romantic beauty, especially, obviously, the slow movement. The Delius bored me stiff.

Maybe I am still that teenager grown old and atrophied in my musical taste :( ;D

cilgwyn

#110
And in the blue corner.......

I have the same experience with certain composers. Charles Stanford,for example. I have loads of Stanford cds,all the symphonies & however hard I try to experience the pleasure some people get out of his music,it's still 'in one ear and out the other'. But,I won't go on,in case I offend someone!

On the other hand,I DO like some Hubert Parry!

  Ravel's another one.A genius,yes I know! But his music leaves me cold. His chamber & instrumental music is more interesting,but I still don't play it much & believe me,I've tried! Tournemire,Ropartz,Roussel,Magnard & Koechlin are all far more appealing to my ears!

I DO like some Delius,though!



Mirror Image

#111
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 02, 2012, 07:12:17 AM
And in the blue corner.......

I have the same experience with certain composers. Charles Stanford,for example. I have loads of Stanford cds,all the symphonies & however hard I try to experience the pleasure some people get out of his music,it's still 'in one ear and out the other'. But,I won't go on,in case I offend someone!

On the other hand,I DO like Hubert Parry!

  Ravel's another one.A genius,yes I know! But his music leaves me cold. His chamber & instrumental music is more interesting,but I still don't play it much & believe me,I've tried! Tournemire,Ropartz,Roussel,Magnard & Koechlin are all far more appealing to my ears!

I DO like some Delius,though!

I like Hubert Parry too, especially Symphony No. 5. What a masterwork.

I can certainly understand why a lot of people wouldn't like Ravel's orchestral music and prefer his chamber music. The honest truth is Ravel is one my favorite composers, but there is a good bit of his music that I don't like (i. e. Bolero, never cared much for La Valse), but I think Daphnis et Chloe and the piano concerti are strokes of genius. I also love his Piano Trio and I've really been quite taken by L'enfant et les sortileges and the song cycle Sheherazade. I don't listen to Ravel as much as I used to, but his music still means a lot to me. Debussy is also one of those composers that I've come to love maybe a tad more than Ravel. I think there are more Debussy works that I love over Ravel's. I mean just listen to Sonata for flute, viola, and harp. What a brilliant work and one that I thought I would never love. Of course, I like the usual Debussy suspects like La mer, Images, Nocturnes, but I've found so many gems that hardly ever get mentioned like Children's Corner (orch. A. Caplet) and Le martye de Saint Sebastien.

Anyway, as much as I like Delius, he doesn't hold a candle to Ravel or Debussy. He certainly hasn't moved me like these two composers. Ravel and Debussy are desert island composers for me. I could live without Delius.

Dundonnell

Quote from: cilgwyn on February 02, 2012, 07:12:17 AM
And in the blue corner.......

I have the same experience with certain composers. Charles Stanford,for example. I have loads of Stanford cds,all the symphonies & however hard I try to experience the pleasure some people get out of his music,it's still 'in one ear and out the other'. But,I won't go on,in case I offend someone!

On the other hand,I DO like some Hubert Parry!

  Ravel's another one.A genius,yes I know! But his music leaves me cold. His chamber & instrumental music is more interesting,but I still don't play it much & believe me,I've tried! Tournemire,Ropartz,Roussel,Magnard & Koechlin are all far more appealing to my ears!

I DO like some Delius,though!

Oh, don't worry ;D

Johan and I are far too good friends and respect each other's views far too much to fall out over a difference of perspective :)

eyeresist

Quote from: Dundonnell on February 02, 2012, 06:24:24 AM
As a teenager I was given an LP with on one side the Samuel Barber Violin Concerto and on the other, the Delius Violin Concerto. The Barber immediately struck with its romantic beauty, especially, obviously, the slow movement. The Delius bored me stiff.
I had the opposite experience with a CfP disc of piano concertos by RVW and Delius plus the Finzi Eclogue (Piers Lane/Handley). To my surprise the Delius was the definite standout, though it's perhaps not his most characteristic work.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 07:52:25 AM
Anyway, as much as I like Delius, he doesn't hold a candle to Ravel or Debussy. He certainly hasn't moved me like these two composers. Ravel and Debussy are desert island composers for me. I could live without Delius.


Delius moves me more than Ravel and Debussy, as much as I love their music. A desert island choice for me...


Quote from: Dundonnell on February 02, 2012, 08:24:11 AM
Johan and I are far too good friends and respect each other's views far too much to fall out over a difference of perspective :)


Indeed.  :)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

I listened to Brigg Fair & the Dance Rhapsody No 2,conducted by Beecham & I definately prefer him to Ravel,who is a composer who does nothing for me,genius,or not. I find that kind of french 'impressionism' gloomy & disturbing. Delius's music is,by contrast,light and airy in texture & even when it's got fey sounding titles about cuckoo's and gardens,strangely mysterious.
Delius's connections with Norway,and the Beecham connection,got me picking out my Beecham cd of Grieg's Peer Gynt,this morning. I was going to take this down to the charity shop. Wonderful music & performances,I'll be keeping this! :)

Mirror Image

Quote from: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 07:41:30 AM
I listened to Brigg Fair & the Dance Rhapsody No 2,conducted by Beecham & I definately prefer him to Ravel,who is a composer who does nothing for me,genius,or not. I find that kind of french 'impressionism' gloomy & disturbing. Delius's music is,by contrast,light and airy in texture & even when it's got fey sounding titles about cuckoo's and gardens,strangely mysterious.
Delius's connections with Norway,and the Beecham connection,got me picking out my Beecham cd of Grieg's Peer Gynt,this morning. I was going to take this down to the charity shop. Wonderful music & performances,I'll be keeping this! :)

Ravel's impressionism dark and gloomy? Okay, this has to be one of the most silly things I've read on this forum.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 03, 2012, 07:47:45 AM
Ravel's impressionism dark and gloomy? Okay, this has to be one of the most silly things I've read on this forum.


Let's call it a bit misguided. There is sombreness in Debussy, though. But in Ravel? No.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

#118
Erm,I didn't say,'dark & gloomy'? 'Gloomy & disturbing' was what I wrote! And,anyway, I was merely referring to a particular kind of music which I don't particularly enjoy.
Van Goch is a great painter & I love his work. But I wouldn't have (reproductions! ;D) on the wall,or look at one before going to bed,as the images are very disturbing. It's just an opinion,that's all!
Give me Tournemire,Magnard,Ropartz or Koechlin,any day!

I was referring to my emotional response to the music,anyway. I suppose I should have stated that more clearly. There is certainly nothing intrinsically gloomy about Ravel's music,itself. I just don't like the atmosphere or the textures. No offence intended,MI!




J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 08:27:39 AM
Erm,I didn't say,'dark & gloomy'? 'Gloomy & disturbing' was what I wrote! And,anyway, I was merely referring to a particular kind of music which I don't particularly enjoy.
Van Goch is a great painter & I love his work. But I wouldn't have (reproductions! ;D ) on the wall,or look at one before going to bed,as the images are very disturbing. It's just an opinion,that's all!
Give me Tournemire,Magnard,Ropartz or Koechlin,any day!

I was referring to my emotional response to the music,anyway. I suppose I should have stated that more clearly. There is certainly nothing intrinsically gloomy about Ravel's music,itself. I just don't like the atmosphere or the textures. No offence intended,MI!


Chacun à son goût.  ;D
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato