Frederick Delius

[J]

For what it's worth, when I say about Holten's SOS that it's stilted and just sounds wrong to me, I refer only to the soprano part, apart from which things go well enough, - though slower tempos than what I'm used to throw things off a bit at times. 

Not to rub you the wrong way even further, but Barb's Appalachia always struck me as rather heavy-handed and over-mannered.  He just can't allow the music to unfold naturally it seems, but imposes too many annoying stops and starts, rubatos, and misplaced emphases that inhibit the flow and dull the magic in my judgement.  Not that it's bad (I'd treasure the recording if it was all I had), but the rightness of musical pacing and phrasing you refer to in Hickox's performance works so much better for me.  Mackerras's reading has some family resemblance to Hickox as I hear it,  but WTF with that baritone at the end? - just about the most grotesque piece of singing I've ever heard.  It sinks everything.

[Mirror Image]

Well, again, it's all subjective. I actually prefer the heaviness of Barbirolli. He was, without a doubt, an important Delian and could be seen as the important link between Beecham and the later generation conductors. He had the courage to continue to carry the torch whenever it may have been unfashionable to do so. With this in mind, I owe him a debt of gratitude. Barbirolli was also one hell of an Elgarian, but that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, we're all different and no one Delian is alike. Like, for example, I care nothing about Beecham's recordings, which maybe sacrilege amongst other Delians, but I never really heard what the big deal was. I do, however, acknowledge how important this man was to Delius' music and for this, as I've said many times before, am grateful.

[J]

No, no, no, it's not "all subjective", else any meaningful judgement and communication would be impossible - though to recognize subjectivity is important.

Beecham's stature as a Delius interpreter may be low ("no big deal") in your experience (a discrimination shot through with an implicit recognition of scale), but to jump from that to assume those who assert his eminence merely express a wholly subjective preference (as you do) is problematic.

There are issues about the quality of one's (yours and theirs) aesthetic sensibility that can't be avoided here.

But no more.

Merry Christmas.

[Mirror Image]

No, no, no, it's not "all subjective", else any meaningful judgement and communication would be impossible - though to recognize subjectivity is important.

Beecham's stature as a Delius interpreter may be low ("no big deal") in your experience (a discrimination shot through with an implicit recognition of scale), but to jump from that to assume those who assert his eminence merely express a wholly subjective preference (as you do) is problematic.

There are issues about the quality of one's (yours and theirs) aesthetic sensibility that can't be avoided here.

But no more.

Merry Christmas.

Well, here's where subjectivity sets in: some people like Beecham, some people do not. A person can acknowledge they don't enjoy something all day long, but to ignore what someone like Beecham has done for Delius would, in my opinion, be a mistake. That's all I'm saying. There's no logic involved in expressing my views about Beecham. I just don't care for the way he performs Delius. There are other approaches to the music which is why there were different conductors who continued to perform Delius' music, because they felt they had something of their own they could add to the music. Another example would be I don't care much about Mozart, but I understand his importance to classical music. You don't have to enjoy something to recognize it's importance, so there's no conflict there at all. You like Beecham's performances, I do not, but he was historically important to Delius. That's all I'm saying about this.

And, yes, Merry Christmas!

[cilgwyn]

Ooh,I like Beecham! I think I'll put his Appalachia on now! You're fault for mentioning him MI! Although,I do agree that there is this cult thing about certain conductors which relegates everything single thing they do to some kind of unattainable higher sphere. For example,his recording of Goldmark's Rustic Wedding Symphony which is supposed to have turned dross into gold and bored me stiff! In fact,it always did,until I heard Maurice Abravanel's delightful and infinitely superior account. Something magical about Utah sand I suppose?!
And it does seem a bit peculiar to listen in hissy mono,when you can have all the option of modern stereo or state of the art digital sound! But the compensation for me is atmosphere and the shape and flow,a conductors feel for the music,so I don't really mind.

One Beecham Delius recording I didn't enjoy was his A Village Romeo & Juliet. All credit to him for recording it and I usually like those old singers;but the ones Beecham used seem to of the worst kind with their quaint,stilted delivery and rolled rrr's! Ouch,my ears!! I have the abridged 20's recording of VW's Hugh the Drover and the singers aren't like that! A bit of Beecham's dosh and they might have been able to set down the whole lot!!

I listened to the emi A Village Romeo & Juliet yesterday. Good as the Mackerras recording is,this,as you say,is finer. Some people have been put off by the presence of Robert Tear. I know what they mean,but he's actually very good in this recording.I certainly didn't have any problem with his singing at all! Any dry,throaty sounds and it would have been back to Mackerras............. for good! Anyway,his presence,as such,didn't really impinge on my consciousness. For me,Tear was just one of a superb ensemble who perform this sublime score with a conviction,passion and fervour which seems to lift it into exalted regions far beyond the more earthbound aspirations of the Mackerras recording,which,excellent as it undoubtedly is,seems more preoccupied with mere beauty of sound.

Merry Christmas!

[Mirror Image]

Ooh,I like Beecham! I think I'll put his Appalachia on now! You're fault for mentioning him MI! Although,I do agree that there is this cult thing about certain conductors which relegates everything single thing they do to some kind of unattainable higher sphere. For example,his recording of Goldmark's Rustic Wedding Symphony which is supposed to have turned dross into gold and bored me stiff! In fact,it always did,until I heard Maurice Abravanel's delightful and infinitely superior account. Something magical about Utah sand I suppose?!
And it does seem a bit peculiar to listen in hissy mono,when you can have all the option of modern stereo or state of the art digital sound! But the compensation for me is atmosphere and the shape and flow,a conductors feel for the music,so I don't really mind.

One Beecham Delius recording I didn't enjoy was his A Village Romeo & Juliet. All credit to him for recording it and I usually like those old singers;but the ones Beecham used seem to of the worst kind with their quaint,stilted delivery and rolled rrr's! Ouch,my ears!! I have the abridged 20's recording of VW's Hugh the Drover and the singers aren't like that! A bit of Beecham's dosh and they might have been able to set down the whole lot!!

I listened to the emi A Village Romeo & Juliet yesterday. Good as the Mackerras recording is,this,as you say,is finer. Some people have been put off by the presence of Robert Tear. I know what they mean,but he's actually very good in this recording.I certainly didn't have any problem with his singing at all! Any dry,throaty sounds and it would have been back to Mackerras............. for good! Anyway,his presence,as such,didn't really impinge on my consciousness. For me,Tear was just one of a superb ensemble who perform this sublime score with a conviction,passion and fervour which seems to lift it into exalted regions far beyond the more earthbound aspirations of the Mackerras recording,which,excellent as it undoubtedly is,seems more preoccupied with mere beauty of sound.

Merry Christmas!

I never thought much of Mackerras' Romeo actually and have actually mentioned on numerous occasions to preferring the Davies recording which is, indeed, a finer performance more in-tune with Delius' sound-world. I don't mind Robert Tear in this performance. He's not distracting so he gets high marks here. It's when the vocalist is intrusive to the music that I become irritated.

Merry Christmas to you, too!

[cilgwyn]

I was introduced to the opera via the Mackerras recording;albeit via the film. I remember sitting there watching it all the way through and I wasn't even terribly into Delius then,let alone opera on tv! I certainly  enjoyed it then!  Having said that,I haven't listened to the Argo/Decca recording since obtaining the emi recording,so I'm relying on memory,to some degree.If I listened to the Mackerras recording now it is quite possible I might share your opinion,although maybe not?! Either way,it did introduce me to this wonderful opera and I don't want to put people off what strikes me as a perfectly decent,well sung recording with an interestingly darker perspective on the work. (Oh,and anyone who does,try and obtain the original Argo release which has a nice,big,chunky booklet/libretto!) For anyone new to the opera I would however recommend the emi recording which has more passion and definitely avoid the Beecham even if you normally like his recordings!

[Mirror Image]

I was introduced to the opera via the Mackerras recording;albeit via the film. I remember sitting there watching it all the way through and I wasn't even terribly into Delius then,let alone opera on tv! I certainly  enjoyed it then!  Having said that,I haven't listened to the Argo/Decca recording since obtaining the emi recording,so I'm relying on memory,to some degree.If I listened to the Mackerras recording now it is quite possible I might share your opinion,although maybe not?! Either way,it did introduce me to this wonderful opera and I don't want to put people off what strikes me as a perfectly decent,well sung recording with an interestingly darker perspective on the work. (Oh,and anyone who does,try and obtain the original Argo release which has a nice,big,chunky booklet/libretto!) For anyone new to the opera I would however recommend the emi recording which has more passion and definitely avoid the Beecham even if you normally like his recordings!

Interestingly enough, I did buy an original of the Mackerras performance on Argo and that booklet is quite nice. I certainly understand your sentiments regarding 'first impressions.' For you to listen to the work at all is all a Delian like me could ask you to do. Anyway, I'm still awaiting someone to take on Irmelin and The Magic Fountain, but it seems we'll all be dead before that happens!

[Mirror Image]

The work Eventyr (Once Upon A Time) still almost shocks the hell out of me when I listen to it. What do our resident Delians think of this work? It seems to be not recorded much.

[J]

It's the shout that startles, right?  Haven't played Eventyr in so long, that's all that comes to mind, - though I'd recognize the piece immediately if heard.

My recording is with Groves.

[Mirror Image]

It's the shout that startles, right?  Haven't played Eventyr in so long, that's all that comes to mind, - though I'd recognize the piece immediately if heard.

My recording is with Groves.

Yep, that's the one. But it seems that the Holten recording has the loudest shout. I like Handley's a lot, too. One reason I'm bringing it up is because on the new Andrew Davis recording he performs it so it'll be interesting to see what he brings to the work.

[cilgwyn]

Beechams lot have the poshest shout! Some very well heeled trolls,there!
Although,I haven't heard his earlier recording (on Naxos).
An interesting idea,this Eventyr 'shout' loudness rating! So far we have (in order of loudness):

1) Holten  Danacord
2) Groves  emi

There are recordings by Handley and Myer Fredman (which doesn't sound particularly enticing!! Trolls in New Zealand?! ). Did Mackerras record it? I can't find one listed. In fact an admittedly brief search on Amazon has found disappointingly few recordings? I wonder why? It's a favourite of mine. I think the Groves Eventyr is one of his best Delius recordings,by the way!

The Musicweb review of the Bo Holten cd,by Rob Barnett,describes the "goblin' shouts" as having the "requisite troll quality" (has he heard trolls shouting?! ) the second one "combines a wail and grunting howl!" (his words!).Now that sounds intriguing!! Unfortunately,he's not so convinced by the performance. Although,it has "probably never been so well recorded!"

What are Handley's 'shouters' like?

Incidentally,I don't think Delius actually specifies who are what is supposed to be doing the shouting.I would have thought the supernatural beings most identified with Norway would be Trolls not goblins! (Although,I recall stories about Norwegian giants from my youth. Now,they'd be loud!! )

With respect to orchestras being told to shout and make noises. Henry Cowell gets his orchestra to participate in his 'Persian Set' (available on the Koch label). I can't remember what they shout,or yell;but the booklet notes make a comparison with the similar instruction in Eventyr! It's nowhere near as memorable,if at all,but I thought it was worth mentioning.
And on the RCA recording of Piston's 'incredible Flautist',I seem to recall the orchestra joins in. Not having multiple recordings of this work,I have no idea if this originates with Piston himself or is just a recording gimmick?

I shall have to look through your posts to see what you thought of the Holten cd. The singing of by Bonde-Hansen sounds like a plus point and 'The Song of the High Hills' gets a pretty good review. I would need to look at more,however! And which is better? The Holten or the recent Andrew Davis recording? The Fenby is very good,but I'm not too keen on the soloist he uses.
The Groves is placed as a fill-up to 'Koanga',which makes a nice coupling. The downside,having to program it in,if you just want that work. I did a search recently and I was surprised to find that this appears to be it's premiere and sole release!

I've located the new Andrew Davis recording you refer to. This sounds very enticing and the title makes a nice comparison with the Danacord recording,although the couplings are different (except for 'Sleigh Ride).

Very tempting! And the 'famous' Chandos sound,of course!

[Mirror Image]

Thanks for the post, cilgwyn. I think Holten's performances are hit/miss for many people. I don't think, however, he's as great of a conductor as Mackerras, Hickox, Handley, Del Mar, A. Davis, etc., but he does bring some much needed enthusiasm back into the Delius catalog. I wouldn't call his performance of Eventyr earth-shattering, but he does seem to understand the aggression that lays beneath the surface of the work. His trolls are LOUD! Startling actually. Handley's are weaker by comparison. Never heard Myer's performance, but how could his performance really be? I never heard Groves' performance and, no, Mackerras has never recorded Eventyr. A shame really since he conducted so much of Delius' music.

The Song of the High Hills receives an excellent performance from A. Davis/BBC SO. I would rate Holten's slightly below it. Davis' Appalachia, however, can't compete with Barbirolli or Hickox I'm afraid and I never liked Mackerras' performance of it, which seems to be rushed through with no attention being given to the music's finer details.

That Andrew Davis is titled Delius In Norway. It looks like quite an interesting program of music. I actually just bought it.

[snyprrr]

wow, the whole Composer Discussion has gone back to the cow pats this week! Something about the cold weather prompt thoughts of the English Countryside? Oh dear, now you've stepped in one!

Surely the Finzi Thread can't be far behind...

[cilgwyn]

Who mentioned English cow pats?
This is is a discussion about Norwegian cow pats!!

[cilgwyn]

A very enthusiastic review of the new Delius Chandos cd on Musicweb already!
And Mirror Image has already got it!!

[Mirror Image]

A very enthusiastic review of the new Delius Chandos cd on Musicweb already!
And Mirror Image has already got it!!

I bought it, yes, but haven't received it (yet). Can't wait to hear it of course.

[Mirror Image]

A link to that MusicWeb review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jan14/Delius_Norway_CHSA5131.htm

[Mirror Image]

Deleted post from J:

I'm unimpressed with Andrew Davis as a Delian up to now, and furthermore don't believe Chandos' characteristic brash and boomy in-your-face sound is a very good fit either.  Davis's Appalachia was appalling, and nothing else I've heard in his series is even remotely competitive with the old Masters (Beecham, Barb, Groves, Davies, Fenby, Hickox, Handley, etc.). Holten, while more sensitive, still lacks the nuances one can hear in other recordings as well (the orchestrated songs, for lack of alternatives I suppose, are much more attractive than the rest IMO).  Frankly, we likely already have the best Delius that will ever be done, and I myself don't really feel the need for more and more alternatives, thought it's understandable some conductors will always want to give the music a try.

Thought I missed this one didn't you? Don't worry I caught it before you deleted it. I will say that 95% you're absolutely right that it's hard to beat the 'old masters' in Delius, but couldn't we say the same thing about so many other composers? I mean I could say "Ah, there will never be a conductor as good as Barbirolli in Elgar again," but the reality is there have been many fine modern conductors in Elgar just as there have been for Delius. Despite your unenthusiastic opinion of Andrew Davis' Delius, which I have to agree that his Appalachia was completely abysmal, on the same recording, he did a fantastic Song of the High Hills. Also on his next Delius installment for Chandos, he conducted a scorching Paris, but I wasn't impressed with the performance of Piano Concerto with Howard Shelley. I still think Philip Fowke has all others beat with maybe Piers Lane coming in a distant second place. Anyway, my point is that while it's true that it seems that the great Delius performances are long gone, I'm not going to keep my ears closed off to the possibility that there will be a great performance forthcoming in the future. After all, this is the future of the composer we're talking about and the only way to bring his music into the 21st Century is to continue to put recordings out of his music. Yes, the 'good old days' are long gone, but I'm not going to completely close myself off to that possible future.

[cilgwyn]

Come on,get out those old hissy,mono Beechams Mirror Image! You know you love 'em really!!

And while you're at it;for the full,authentic Beecham sound,why not invest in one of these? They're surprisingly cheap s/h;and as an added bonus,no worries about power cuts and you get to reduce your carbon footprint in one fell swoop!!