Toch Talk

[Karl Henning]

The Toch Talk has made me curious, and I decided to return to Toch despite my earlier less than enthusiastic reaction. I've started with the Symphony No 1. (I was a little surprised to find it is a work of Toch's maturity, not an early work.) I am generally positively impressed. The one issue I have is that there is a lot of music in this work for large orchestra which has a diaphanous chamber music texture and the audio engineering makes it sound a bit wan, the sound only blossoms in a satisfactory way in the forceful passages. I would prefer a more in-your-face soundstage. The forceful passages can be quite impressive, such as the close of the piece. Generally the music doesn't clobber you over the head, but there is always something interesting going on.

I discovered I do not have the string quartets, and my order with momox shop was summarily canceled because they don't have it in stock. (Why did they list it then?) I've decided to get volume I, at least, as a lossless download from Presto.

Nice. I'm revisiting the Langsam, zart third mvt of the First Symphony this morning.

(* typo *)

[Maestro267]

OK we get it. You can stop now. You only need to post once that it bores you.

[Spotted Horses]

Second symphony.



Having the same reaction as previously. The music fascinates me, inventive sonorities, crawling with attractive melodies. I just wish they had put the microphones closer to the orchestra. It sounds like I'm listening from the lobby of the concert hall.

[Maestro267]

By coincidence I just finished listening to that now. Finale makes up for the mostly lack of real fortissimo in the other three movements. Atmospherics though. All about the a e s t h e t i c.

[Daverz]

Second symphony.



Having the same reaction as previously. The music fascinates me, inventive sonorities, crawling with attractive melodies. I just wish they had put the microphones closer to the orchestra. It sounds like I'm listening from the lobby of the concert hall.

I thought 2 was much more interesting than 1, which I found rather dull and overlong.  For 3, I'll move on to the Steinberg.

[Karl Henning]

Second symphony.



Having the same reaction as previously. The music fascinates me, inventive sonorities, crawling with attractive melodies. I just wish they had put the microphones closer to the orchestra. It sounds like I'm listening from the lobby of the concert hall.

After kind of marinating in the First, I'm now getting [back] to the Second, myself.

[Daverz]

So after a brief survey of all 7, I think I like 6 and 7 the most.  The CPO sound is very good in this case.

[Spotted Horses]

Toch's 3rd, under Steinberg's direction and engineered in 1956 by Irving Joel at Capitol, is a hoot!



Now, with trepidation, I return to the cpo cycle for the 4th.

[Brian]

Seeing all the Toch talk around the board, I decided to try some. Most of what I know about him is limited to the anecdote posted in this thread in which he tells a young Andre Previn, "you have no talent."

Symphony No. 1 starts with a creepy nocturnal first movement full of slithering and snarling and spooky atmosphere. The second movement, which Francis does not conduct quite "allegro molto," turns up the temperature a bit. In general, the symphony actually reminds me a lot of Kalevi Aho - generalized angst and distrust, colorful in orchestration but gray in harmony, with martial elements which suggest the struggle of an individual against an oppressive society/state. Toch began composing symphonies in 1950, after returning to Vienna from his fascism-imposed exile in the USA. He clearly lived through that struggle and it's easy to hear in moments like the end of the second movement, with its snare drum and xylophone rat-a-tat assault.

I do find Aho's exploration of the same emotional field to be more colorful and surprising overall, and in general, I don't listen to grim symphonies like this too often. Am very sympathetic to the commenters here who said the finale, especially, is overlong and drab (by the time the fugue started, I was mentally checked out). For me, Symphony No. 1 is respected, but not enjoyed.

Unfortunately, Qobuz does not have any recordings of Symphonies 2 or 3. So I moved straight along to No. 4 - and turned it off after six minutes.



Daverz said he found 6 and 7 the most interesting, so I skipped ahead. 6 is very strange. It's light and airy and full of short snippets of march-like tunes (there is a mini tune chunk in the first movement which resembles the scherzo from Stenhammar's Serenade and a passage around 2' in the finale which evokes Richard Strauss). But it's also chaotic and fragmented and disruptive/disorienting. The notes say the composer was dying of cancer, but this almost seems like a portrait of someone who's dying of dementia instead. Ultimately, despite the lightness of textures, major-key idiom, and overall melodic interest, I found this a tiring, mentally demanding listen. Since I'm at work and trying to get stuff done, I need to put off further Toch talk and find something easier on the ears.

[Karl Henning]

Interesting, Brian. Say, if you were working while listening to the First, you might (or might not) give that last mvt a fully attentive listen, to see if you remain "checked in." Color me curious.

[Brian]

Interesting, Brian. Say, if you were working while listening to the First, you might (or might not) give that last mvt a fully attentive listen, to see if you remain "checked in." Color me curious.

I was indeed working - I did notice the peculiar ending, where the work seems to end, the timpanist pounds away for about 10 more seconds, and then the orchestra returns for the "real" ending.

[Karl Henning]

I was indeed working - I did notice the peculiar ending, where the work seems to end, the timpanist pounds away for about 10 more seconds, and then the orchestra returns for the "real" ending.

So, you hadn't quite "checked out." I'm curious, though obviously pursue your own time-table, if on a listen some other time, the movement's duration sits all right with you.

[Spotted Horses]

Seeing all the Toch talk around the board, I decided to try some. Most of what I know about him is limited to the anecdote posted in this thread in which he tells a young Andre Previn, "you have no talent."

Symphony No. 1 starts with a creepy nocturnal first movement full of slithering and snarling and spooky atmosphere. The second movement, which Francis does not conduct quite "allegro molto," turns up the temperature a bit. In general, the symphony actually reminds me a lot of Kalevi Aho - generalized angst and distrust, colorful in orchestration but gray in harmony, with martial elements which suggest the struggle of an individual against an oppressive society/state. Toch began composing symphonies in 1950, after returning to Vienna from his fascism-imposed exile in the USA. He clearly lived through that struggle and it's easy to hear in moments like the end of the second movement, with its snare drum and xylophone rat-a-tat assault.

I do find Aho's exploration of the same emotional field to be more colorful and surprising overall, and in general, I don't listen to grim symphonies like this too often. Am very sympathetic to the commenters here who said the finale, especially, is overlong and drab (by the time the fugue started, I was mentally checked out). For me, Symphony No. 1 is respected, but not enjoyed.

Unfortunately, Qobuz does not have any recordings of Symphonies 2 or 3. So I moved straight along to No. 4 - and turned it off after six minutes.



Daverz said he found 6 and 7 the most interesting, so I skipped ahead. 6 is very strange. It's light and airy and full of short snippets of march-like tunes (there is a mini tune chunk in the first movement which resembles the scherzo from Stenhammar's Serenade and a passage around 2' in the finale which evokes Richard Strauss). But it's also chaotic and fragmented and disruptive/disorienting. The notes say the composer was dying of cancer, but this almost seems like a portrait of someone who's dying of dementia instead. Ultimately, despite the lightness of textures, major-key idiom, and overall melodic interest, I found this a tiring, mentally demanding listen. Since I'm at work and trying to get stuff done, I need to put off further Toch talk and find something easier on the ears.

I've almost finished my Toch symphony survey (only the 5th remains). The disc with 5, 6, 7 indeed has much better audio. Basically I found the two discs containing 1, 4, and 2, 3, to be pretty unsatisfying. Symphonies 6 and 7 are indeed disjointed in their construction. I guess what attracts me in this music is the interesting textures Toch produces. By far the best Toch I have heard is the Steinberg recording of the third symphony.

I do have the string quartets now, and after I give. the fifth symphony a listen I expect I will put Toch on hiatus for a while then try and approach the string quartets afresh.

[Karl Henning]

Sounds good.

[Spotted Horses]

Having just finished my survey of the Toch Symphonies, my overall conclusion is that the audio engineering for 1-4 in the Alun Francis series prevents me from engaging in the music. The Steinberg recording of the third symphony is wonderful. For 5-7 the cpo provides satisfactory audio. Of the three I found the fifth symphony to be the most compelling. It is a symphonic poem constructed from themes that Toch developed while working on a Opera. Now I will give Toch a rest, and at some point listen to the string quartets.

[Cato]

It is too bad that my original reviews are moldering somewhere in Internet Purgatory!   


I could have compared my impressions then with what I am writing now!


Anyway, I am sure I mentioned in the original reviews somewhere that one of the most interesting things about all of Toch's works is the clarity of the polyphony: it is masterful!  The Symphony #1 proves that in the opening movement.

The First Movement conjures up images of an astronaut exploring one of the moons of Jupiter: a spectral, lonely atmosphere evoking The Unknown is established.  Hostile territory it may be, yet there is an otherworldly beauty in the sounds.  Suddenly the shock of seeing something unnatural dispels everything and a new, more unsettling emotional territory is entered.  Eventually one travels through lands similar to those at the beginning.

The Second Movement sounds rather joyful and sprightly, a ballet from another world (to continue the image from above), but there are elements which turn menacing and rather quickly one discovers that the happiness at the beginning has soured into the most stringent vinegar of violence.

The ending of the Scherzo prepares one for the The Third Movement, which again has images eerie and unknown, but this time we hear the voice of one crying in the desert of another planet.  The hostility of the area is now definite, yet...by the end, there is some hope of escape from it.  Parts of Bernard Herrmann's score for Psycho are strikingly similar to parts of this movement: it is probably coincidental, but one wonders if Herrmann might have heard this work.

And so, the opening of the Finale signals that victory is possible, but not without some retracing of previous steps from the Scherzo and the Adagio and dealing with elements there.  One hears a struggle with those previous elements, and the final pages offer a quasi-Brucknerian triumph with some marvelous polyphonic ideas.  The victory signal at the end verifies that all is well!

A most excellent work!  This is the Alun Francis CD and I had and have no issues with the nature of the recording: if anything, the resonance adds to the atmosphere inherent in the score.

[LKB]

I admit l am unfamiliar with Toch. But what I've read in this thread and on Wikipedia ( just now ) is intriguing enough for me to give him a whirl sometime this week. I'll report back when l have meaningful input. 

[Karl Henning]

I admit l am unfamiliar with Toch. But what I've read in this thread and on Wikipedia ( just now ) is intriguing enough for me to give him a whirl sometime this week. I'll report back when l have meaningful input. 

Splendid.

[LKB]

I found a little time to touch briefly on his Symphony No. 5, a sonata for Cello and Piano,  and a string quartet. Literally just a few minutes total listening for the three works, but first impressions as follows:

Harmonic structure reminds me of somewhat of Shostakovich, in places, more than anyone else.

His melodic style reminded me of Stravinsky, in legato or cantabile passages, a bit Firebird-ish.

Emotional high points made me think of Zemlinsky.

I need more time with his music, and l will make time for it. Anyway, those are first impressions.

[Spotted Horses]

I found a little time to touch briefly on his Symphony No. 5, a sonata for Cello and Piano,  and a string quartet. Literally just a few minutes total listening for the three works, but first impressions as follows:

Harmonic structure reminds me of somewhat of Shostakovich, in places, more than anyone else.

His melodic style reminded me of Stravinsky, in legato or cantabile passages, a bit Firebird-ish.

Emotional high points made me think of Zemlinsky.

I need more time with his music, and l will make time for it. Anyway, those are first impressions.

I plan to dive into the string quartets next. I think the most obvious place to start in orchestral music is the Steinberg's recording is symphony no 3.