Re: complexity in music

[Joe_Campbell]

There was a rather epic thread ages ago where complexity and difficulty in piano music was discussed. I remember the discussion being fascinating, but I can't find the thread. If it helps anyone remember, James and Luke got into a rather involved 'discussion-within-a-discussion' about the Goldberg Variations.

Is this thread gone for good on the old board, or does it exist in some form on someone's HD for posterity's sake? \

Here's hoping...

[lukeottevanger]

There was a rather epic thread ages ago where complexity and difficulty in piano music was discussed. I remember the discussion being fascinating, but I can't find the thread. If it helps anyone remember, James and Luke got into a rather involved 'discussion-within-a-discussion' about the Goldberg Variations.

Don't even remember that one myself! Probably for the best, though, I imagine. In any case, I'm sure we could all recreate said 'discussion-within-a-discussion' ourselves. 

[Philoctetes]

Tracts is the most difficult.

[lukeottevanger]

As piano music, that may be so, though it has its equals, says Ian Pace, who ought to know. Taking all together, these pieces have serious rivals, though - Ferneyhough's Unity Capsule and cello Time and Motion Study being the most prominent; and of course there are ensemble pieces by these guys the sum of whose complexities is simply beyond belief.

Problem is, in discussions of this type this sort of 'new complexity' music tends to be set off as a separate category, as if it doesn't really 'count'. Also, there's the risk of confusing complexity with difficulty - Ligeti's piano etudes aren't as complex as Ferneyhough's Lemma-Icon-Epigram but, taking into account that an accurate performance of the latter is impossible whereas it is imperative of the former, they are probably more difficult.

[Philoctetes]

As piano music, that may be so, though it has its equals, says Ian Pace, who ought to know. Taking all together, these pieces have serious rivals, though - Ferneyhough's Unity Capsule and cello Time and Motion Study being the most prominent; and of course there are ensemble pieces by these guys the sum of whose complexities is simply beyond belief.

Problem is, in discussions of this type this sort of 'new complexity' music tends to be set off as a separate category, as if it doesn't really 'count'. Also, there's the risk of confusing complexity with difficulty - Ligeti's piano etudes aren't as complex as Ferneyhough's Lemma-Icon-Epigram but, taking into account that an accurate performance of the latter is impossible whereas it is imperative of the former, they are probably more difficult.

Of course, and if I recall the last discussion musicality was brought up as a rally cry. I cannot measure the musicality of a piece, but I think we can make a fair estimation on the technical aspects of the pieces.

I mean Vexations is extremely difficult if one follows the score to the 't', but the piece as it is written, is quite playable by a pianist of little talent.

[Philoctetes]

Also, I should have made clear that it was for piano alone, and nothing beyond that.

[karlhenning]

No on-bench humming?

[Joe_Campbell]

No on-bench humming?

Or whistling, a la Charles Ives?

In all seriousness, it would have perhaps been more prudent to label the thread with 'difficulty' instead of 'complexity,' because I realize now that it was probably the former that I hoped to elucidite more information on.

Referring to the latter, I'd have to agree with Luke with what I've seen in Ferneyhough, mainly the country tune (nice name...), though I may have seen a page of 'Tracts' that Kevin mentions. It seems to me that when the music gets that complex, it's very difficult to quantify the complexity...i.e. is it ratio of black to white on the printed page?

As with all things relative, most difficult is hard to discern. One piece I keep coming back to is Gaspard de la Nuit by Ravel, mainly because the technical difficulty is on a fraction of the battle, and a successful interpretation is key to performing this piece. On the other hand, though I acknowledge the techincal aspects of Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, I think it speaks volumes about its interpretive difficulties that a buggered live performance by Madge has been so acclaimed.

To steal a phrase that someone once used (possibly misappropriated) towards Mozart, the difficulties in Gasp... are far more transparent.

I read a great article about the piece here:
http://surj.stanford.edu/2004/pdfs/eccles.pdf

to perhaps save myself from any gross generalizations, I can think of some pieces of Sorabji's, for example his Hindu Merchant Song's pastiche, that do present interpretive difficulties equal to those technical

[lukeottevanger]

Referring to the latter, I'd have to agree with Luke with what I've seen in Ferneyhough, mainly the country tune (nice name...),

Do you mean Finnissy? His English Country Tunes? They are indeed pretty extreme, but so is much of his music!

Issues of complexity can blind us to the fact that these composers are all very different, and some of them are really very fine indeed. Finnissy's one, for my money - I think he's one of the finest living composers, personally, with an admirably high-minded seriousness and a real sense of poetry

[Joe_Campbell]

Do you mean Finnissy? His English Country Tunes? They are indeed pretty extreme, but so is much of his music!

can't believe I made that mistake...

Issues of complexity can blind us to the fact that these composers are all very different, and some of them are really very fine indeed. Finnissy's one, for my money - I think he's one of the finest living composers, personally, with an admirably high-minded seriousness and a real sense of poetry

Perhaps...I'm willing to bet that I just haven't listened to his(Finnissy's) music enough. After all, it did take me about 8 times through the Rite of Spring before I really liked it...and a few more times after that before I loved it. Still, I never thought I'd here Finnissy described as poetic. My first impression with English Country Tunes was more...violent. hehehe

[Chrone]

Re: complexity, I'm partial to this piece:

http://everynote.com/goods.1/Matt_P_Past4.pdf

I especially like the admonition: "Don't Fake."

[Joe_Campbell]

Re: complexity, I'm partial to this piece:

http://everynote.com/goods.1/Matt_P_Past4.pdf

I especially like the admonition: "Don't Fake."

mmmm....tone cluster rag... 0:)

[lukeottevanger]

can't believe I made that mistake...Perhaps...I'm willing to bet that I just haven't listened to his(Finnissy's) music enough. After all, it did take me about 8 times through the Rite of Spring before I really liked it...and a few more times after that before I loved it. Still, I never thought I'd here Finnissy described as poetic. My first impression with English Country Tunes was more...violent. hehehe

Well, two responses to that

1) there's more than one way to be poetic (Chopin is always a poet, but he's sometimes pretty violent too!)

and

2) Finnissy is not always hurling pages of notes at you in a wild blizzard as in parts of the English Country Tunes - there are some immensely slow and quiet sections to the piece too.

Finnissy is, IMO, one of the very finest piano-specialist composers alive today (the only equal he has, I think, is Ronald Stevenson, who is an altogether different type of composer but whose strange brand of generous, human poetry, full of folk music allusions, paraphrases and transcendentalism both pianisitic and compositonal seems not to come from too far away from Finnissy's). Finnissy stands out for me from the other complexity guys because his music really engages with the world and all its beauty and messiness passionately. His music is full of love, for the pieces paraphrased, for the people honoured, for art and place and thought. As a pianist, Joe, you ought to urgently check out his Gershwin arrangements (utterly beautiful and really rather moving) and get hold of the two volumes of his shorter piano pieces (Oxford Music Press) which contain some delights. the Berlioz paraphrase Romeo and Juliet are drowning is a real private pleasure of mine, but actually these two books are full of subtle wonders...I'm just remembering a Mozart paraphrase which contains some of the most refined notational implications I can think of (three layers - neumatic, Mozartian, monodic-complexity - and you really need to distinguish between first and last timbrally somehow...). I'd better stop waffling - but trust me, if Finnissy ain't a musical poet then there aren't any left!

[lukeottevanger]

Re: complexity, I'm partial to this piece:

http://everynote.com/goods.1/Matt_P_Past4.pdf

I especially like the admonition: "Don't Fake."

Nice! At home I have a great piece by an Australian composer whose name escapes me called War is a Bad Idea (or something similar) whose use of clusters and deliberately mean notation is similarly inspired! Maybe I'll post an excerpt later...

[Joe_Campbell]

Alright, Luke...I've found a download of the Gershwin piano arrangements, as well as the sheet music (shh)...I'm looking forward to this; there's nothing like a passionate salesman to make a product sound appealing, and, well, you've sold me, so to speak!

Btw, there's a complete upload of Finnissy's English Country Tunes on youtube, albeit with no video.

On a side, Luke, have you had a chance to check out Marc-Andre Hamelin's latest disc feating Godowsky transcriptions of Johann Strauss? Talkin' about arrangements!

[Joe_Campbell]

Re: complexity, I'm partial to this piece:

http://everynote.com/goods.1/Matt_P_Past4.pdf

I especially like the admonition: "Don't Fake."

I may be rather dense right now, but what would the direction "Don't Fake" mean in the context of this piece?

[karlhenning]

I may be rather dense right now, but what would the direction "Don't Fake" mean in the context of this piece?

Play the notes as notated, and all the notes as notated;  don't be content with "close enough for jazz."

[bhodges]

Finnissy is, IMO, one of the very finest piano-specialist composers alive today (the only equal he has, I think, is Ronald Stevenson, who is an altogether different type of composer but whose strange brand of generous, human poetry, full of folk music allusions, paraphrases and transcendentalism both pianisitic and compositonal seems not to come from too far away from Finnissy's). Finnissy stands out for me from the other complexity guys because his music really engages with the world and all its beauty and messiness passionately. His music is full of love, for the pieces paraphrased, for the people honoured, for art and place and thought. As a pianist, Joe, you ought to urgently check out his Gershwin arrangements (utterly beautiful and really rather moving) and get hold of the two volumes of his shorter piano pieces (Oxford Music Press) which contain some delights. the Berlioz paraphrase Romeo and Juliet are drowning is a real private pleasure of mine, but actually these two books are full of subtle wonders...I'm just remembering a Mozart paraphrase which contains some of the most refined notational implications I can think of (three layers - neumatic, Mozartian, monodic-complexity - and you really need to distinguish between first and last timbrally somehow...). I'd better stop waffling - but trust me, if Finnissy ain't a musical poet then there aren't any left!

So nice to see such praise for Finnissy, whom I like very much, too.  Those Gershwin arrangements are utterly fascinating. 

I'll be happy to start a thread on him in the composers section, unless one of you would like to. 

--Bruce

[Joe_Campbell]

So nice to see such praise for Finnissy, whom I like very much, too.  Those Gershwin arrangements are utterly fascinating. 

I'll be happy to start a thread on him in the composers section, unless one of you would like to. 

--Bruce

Hey, I think I saw a review of yours on Amazon when looking into Finnissy recordings! Fine coincidence!

[bwv 1080]

You know, however complex a piece of music you can always up the complexity by listening to another piece at the same time.  Combining Tracts and Night Fantasies as a quodlibet for two pianos, for example