Taneyev vs Rachmaninoff ~ or Taneyev's mastery of counterpoint

[The new erato]

Teacher: Don't think, repeat after me. Elgar bad, very bad.

Students: Elgar bad, very bad

Teacher: Beethoven good, very good.

Students: Beethoven good, very good

Teacher: Dittersdorf bad, very bad.

Students: Dittersdorf bad, very bad.

Teacher: Rachmaninoff good, very good.

Students: Rachmaninoff good, very good

Teacher: Taneyev bad, very bad.

Students: Taneyev bad, very bad.

Well, I don't think Taneyev and Dittersdorf are mentioned at all (at least not discussed) in most musical education. As for Elgar I think he is taken quite seriously - but your discovery of his vibrational fields I don't think is mentioned. Just goes to show how musical eduvation has gone down the drains. 

[71 dB]

Well, I don't think Taneyev and Dittersdorf are mentioned at all (at least not discussed) in most musical education.

That's what I have suspected. I sense a lot of "The whole history of classical music saw 50 significant composers, forget about the rest."-kind of mentality among musically educated people. Whenever I say something positive about Fasch, Graupner, Tunder, Weckmann, Vanhal, Dittersdorf, Hofmann, Taneyev, Hasse, Clérambault, Elgar etc. someone jumps in and attacks my understanding of music. All I can say is I am happy I didn't go to a music conservatory to be brainwashed but I have used my own head to figure out who really were the significant composers.

As for Elgar I think he is taken quite seriously - but your discovery of his vibrational fields I don't think is mentioned. Just goes to show how musical eduvation has gone down the drains. 

The world isn't ready for my vibrational fields theory. 

[knight66]

With some obscure motive, you must want the kind of replies that you attract; otherwise you would not persist in posting your opinions as fact. Although I continue to moderate when I notice the abuse becoming personal; it is clear that there are some people who cannot be helped, you are one of them.

Mike

[71 dB]

Enough for what?

To enjoy counterpoint in music.

[The new erato]

That's what I have suspected. I sense a lot of "The whole history of classical music saw 50 significant composers, forget about the rest."-kind of mentality among musically educated people.

Depends. The average classic music listener may well be hard put to expand beyond 50 composers, but musically educated people, or people with a serious interest, goes far beyond that. Just read the "how many composers in your collection" thread.

Whenever I say something positive about Fasch, Graupner, Tunder, Weckmann, Vanhal, Dittersdorf, Hofmann, Taneyev, Hasse, Clérambault, Elgar etc.

With the exception of Hofman I know works of all these composers.....there's no doubt that Elgar is an important composer, and that several of those you mention are quite significant (at least Hasse, Clerambault and Fasch). I also suspect (but need to listen to more works) that Taneyey is perhaps the most interesting composer among his Russian contemporaries. I have BTW just (in fact, before this discussion came up) ordered this new recording:

[71 dB]

With some obscure motive, you must want the kind of replies that you attract; otherwise you would not persist in posting your opinions as fact. Although I continue to moderate when I notice the abuse becoming personal; it is clear that there are some people who cannot be helped, you are one of them.

Mike

I am sorry if I behave badly. This is a rude forum and I don't see why I should behave any better than others. If messages like "Elgar sucks" are allowed then I think my messages about Beethoven's not so brilliant orchestration skills should be allowed too. I don't have difficulties to be polite in a polite environment. This is not one.

Many things I post aren't just my opinions. For example, the music of Matthias Weckmann has gained admiration among scholars over the last decade and his music has been performed and released on many labels. What is teached in music conservatories seems to be a bit dated and don't always reflect the newest conseptions in music research.

[The new erato]

I am sorry if I behave badly.

You behave quite decently these days. Keep up the good work. And yes, this forum is occasionally quite rude.

[Que]

I am sorry if I behave badly. This is a rude forum and I don't see why I should behave any better than others.

At least please try not to roam about various threads with off topic subjects - you're giving me a hard time to keep up with splitting & merging threads... If you want to discuss something like Elgar vs Rachmaninoff vs Elgar & counterpoint, please start a seperate topic. (No need to do that now, here it is already.)

Q

[71 dB]

Depends. The average classic music listener may well be hard put to expand beyond 50 composers, but musically educated people, or people with a serious interest, goes far beyond that. Just read the "how many composers in your collection" thread.

We all need to concentrate on our favorite composers, 20 perhaps but it's good to know there are hundreds and hundred significant composers out there. Most people have Krumpholtz in their collection because it came with Handel's Harp Concerto.

With the exception of Hofman I know works of all these composers.....

Good, good. For introduction to Hofmann I can recommend this CD:

.

There's no doubt that Elgar is an important composer, and that several of those you mention are quite significant (at least Hasse, Clerambault and Fasch). I also suspect (but need to listen to more works) that Taneyey is perhaps the most interesting composer among his Russian contemporaries. I have BTW just (in fact, before this discussion came up) ordered this new recording:

I don't have that Hyperion disc myself (I have a MDG disc of String Trios). I hope you like it. 

[knight66]

71bd, I did not suggest that you behave badly. I will try to be more explicit. You have a long history here of coming up with controversial viewpoints which a lot of people here do not regard as springing out of any kind of formal understanding of the subjects; but rather that you dress up your opinion as having an academic grounding. However, you are entitled to express your thoughts pretty much as you please.

Whether your theories turn out to revolutionise the world or not; you by now know what sort of dusty replies a lot of your wilder shores posts attract. So, I deduce from the way you both continue to post in a provocative way and then pose as a martyred, marginalised, victimised freethinker; that you want the reactions you get.

You are rarely rude and in that you are much more sinned against than sinning.

Today I deleted yet another post prompted by your thoughts. Had I bothered to follow the link to the 'Aspergers' item, that one would have gone too; but I had assumed M was trying to be helpful instead of insulting. But I don't see the moderation function here to be eternally defending you from yourself and the exercise of even the modified free speech we enjoy here comes with consequences. That being so, I assume that in exercising that freedom of thought, you know the kind of replies you get here. It is no pleasure to me to watch your self confidence being chipped away at, you have explained it is the frequent result of the exchanges. As I said, despite the efforts; I don't think you are someone open to being helped.

I hope I have now made myself clear.

Knight

[Sean]

Lightening the mood, there's some great counterpoint in Taneyev's opera The Oresteia.

[71 dB]

71bd, I did not suggest that you behave badly. I will try to be more explicit. You have a long history here of coming up with controversial viewpoints which a lot of people here do not regard as springing out of any kind of formal understanding of the subjects; but rather that you dress up your opinion as having an academic grounding. However, you are entitled to express your thoughts pretty much as you please.

I was raised to think freely. That's who I am. I know it's easier for me to question things than it's for the majority of people who are raised to believe authorities. I am sort of a mythbuster. Busting old conceptions leads to controversiality which takes the world forward. I do have an academic grounding, just not musical. I think I have understanding about music, just formulated in my own way. I have made computer music for 15 years. I have had to study harmonic, rhythmic etc. relationships. I am a scientifically educated intelligent person. I have mental tools to decode/solve principles out of things. People are welcome to disagree with me. That's not new to me. I am willing to argue.

Whether your theories turn out to revolutionise the world or not; you by now know what sort of dusty replies a lot of your wilder shores posts attract. So, I deduce from the way you both continue to post in a provocative way and then pose as a martyred, marginalised, victimised freethinker; that you want the reactions you get.

Believe me, I don't want to be a martyr. Freethinkers are frustrated. They have to talk for decades before others start to get their point. I don't want to be marginalised either. It's frustrating to be pushed in the marginal due to my Elgar admiration while others talk about Vaughan-Williams.

You are rarely rude and in that you are much more sinned against than sinning.

I hope I have now made myself clear.

Knight

Thanks, yes, you made.

[knight66]

Lightening the mood, there's some great counterpoint in Taneyev's opera The Oresteia.

Only in your world would bringing the Oresteia into a topic be regarded as lightening the mood.

Mike

[Sean]

Okay. My greek tragedy isn't so good but I take the point.

[71 dB]

Lightening the mood, there's some great counterpoint in Taneyev's opera The Oresteia.

Have you heard the whole opera? I have only the overture (great counterpoint thou...).

[greg]

If you are still interested in multi-dimensional vibrational fields, you should explore Rachmaninoff. His music has multi-dimensional fields which are much more complex than Elgar's.

wait? the thread is about Taneyev and he isn't mentioned in the opening post? 

Lightening the mood, there's some great counterpoint in Taneyev's opera The Oresteia.

No, we should listen to Xenakis' Oresteia, so we can join the audience and wave flags just like he indicates in the score. See, it can be festive.....

[The new erato]

wait? the thread is about Taneyev and he isn't mentioned in the opening post? 
No, we should listen to Xenakis' Oresteia, so we can join the audience and wave flags just like he indicates in the score. See, it can be festive.....

One of my first "classical" records was of Xenakis Oresteia, 35 years ago. Didn't know I was expected to wave flags though.

[greg]

One of my first "classical" records was of Xenakis Oresteia, 35 years ago. Didn't know I was expected to wave flags though.

Yeah, you're supposed to do it at the end.

200 small metal flags should be distributed to the audience, at the end of the work. They wave them joyfully, uniting with the spirit of the choruses.

I'd rather play the sirens, though. 

[scarpia]

Believe me, I don't want to be a martyr. Freethinkers are frustrated. They have to talk for decades before others start to get their point. I don't want to be marginalised either. It's frustrating to be pushed in the marginal due to my Elgar admiration while others talk about Vaughan-Williams.

You seem to be operating using invalid logic:

When geniuses make great advances, their ideas are not accepted the general public
Since my ideas are not accepted by the general public I am a genius who is making great advances.

In fact, there is another explanation for the fact that no one agrees with you.

[Sean]

Have you heard the whole opera? I have only the overture (great counterpoint thou...).

Yes indeed, it's on two CDS, I forget the label and performers but it made a very strong impression on me, particularly first hearing; melodically it doesn't really materialize but it's blood on the wall stuff indeed.