Hurwitz and the Serialists

[Cato]

  The mere act of organization cannot not make art. 

... Serialism and its rules of composition allow anyone to take any sounds, organize them, and call it music.  For me, that's where it all falls apart.

Which is why nobody makes CD's of the examples of exercises from e.g. Counterpoint and Harmony textbooks.

They are organized according to the traditional rules, but they are not art.

For art, you need the mind of an artist: this is why Schoenberg and some of his followers have persisted, and why Music Professor X of Upper Podunk University and his serialist scribblings, which maybe made their way into a journal somewhere, have died away unnoticed and unmourned.

You do indeed need "different ears" for certain composers: some of my students would choose the quarter-tone piano experiments of Charles Ives over atonal Schoenberg, and some vice versa.  Others would choose neither, if given Mahler or Wagner or Pat Benatar as a third option.      And then a few found everything quite acceptable.

[bwv 1080]

Serialism and its rules of composition allow anyone to take any sounds, organize them, and call it music.  For me, that's where it all falls apart.

But one can say the same for the "rules" of fugue writing.  Why does serialism get the bad rap, when I can mechanically write a sonata, fugue, theme & variation or any other common practice form?

[Bunny]

But one can say the same for the "rules" of fugue writing.  Why does serialism get the bad rap, when I can mechanically write a sonata, fugue, theme & variation or any other common practice form?

What makes you think that there have never been bad fugues written?  Bad music is more common than great music.  The problem is not with serialism so much as the serialists.

[bwv 1080]

What makes you think that there have never been bad fugues written?  Bad music is more common than great music.  The problem is not with serialism so much as the serialists.

That is my point.  You  said the serialism "falls apart" because its rules allow anyone to organize sounds and call it music but as you admit this is true of fugue writing as well, so your earlier point is inconsistent with what you just said.

[Cato]

What makes you think that there have never been bad fugues written?  Bad music is more common than great music.  The problem is not with serialism so much as the serialists.

Right, as I mentioned earlier, but the problem lies always with a danger in the 12-tone method itself: let's face it!  The "rules" are simple, and take less talent to follow than the traditional style.

But I think "serialism" - precisely because of its simplicity - demands in fact more talent from the composer for the creation of something going beyond the method itself.

[karlhenning]

Serialism and its rules of composition allow anyone to take any sounds, organize them, and call it music.

It is rare to encounter such absolute humbug.

[Bunny]

Right, as I mentioned earlier, but the problem lies always with a danger in the 12-tone method itself: let's face it!  The "rules" are simple, and take less talent to follow than the traditional style.

But I think "serialism" - precisely because of its simplicity - demands in fact more talent from the composer for the creation of something going beyond the method itself.

Talent, creative spark, esthetic sensiblity -- whatever you need to compose great serialist music, it still does't guarantee a result that will appeal to many now or in the future.  Despite enjoying some works, it's not going to be my first choice for listening.

[bwv 1080]

they make no effort to understand or are perhaps incapable of understanding, I don't know. I don't know, I really don't know the answer to this. I could say all kinds of pretentious things about it, which I really don't want to say because the music is there. If they think the Schoenberg Fourth Quartet and the Violin Concerto—I just won't go beyond Schoenberg, because there's so much other music—or the Stravinsky Movements for Piano and Orchestra, all these pieces are to be damned, good, I'm glad to be among the damned. I can't say that without proof and I don't like to say things without something that approximates demonstration. They don't recognize the music. They don't recognize the beginning of the Schoenberg Orchestral Variations. Look, after all in my generation, no one was to the twelve-tone manner born. I mean, we suddenly encountered it, we were interested in learning the music, learning what was going on in the music, or we didn't. You know, so many different people came to it for so many different reasons. When Aaron Copland, I don't know how many people are even aware that now, ended up writing so-called serial—I'm saying so-called because the term is so misunderstood—but when he wrote serial music, I'll never forget, Aaron, and I'll call him Aaron, because I did call him Aaron, Aaron once said, you know, "twelve-tone music is this mathematical thing, no, it's not for me," and he said that. He said that publicly. And then, about ten years later, he began writing music, in fact to such an extent, I'll say in all lack of modesty, that he wanted me to write an article about his Piano Fantasy, which I did, but the magazine that asked for it went out of existence, the IMA magazine from England, which you probably never saw. But Aaron then said, "Oh my God, I discovered that by playing with these twelve-tone [whatever he called them, rows, probably], I found chords that I had never imagined before." Some people criticize, "What a superficial view of twelve-tone, he found chords he had never found before..." but I thought that was fine. For him, to satisfy the kind of interest that he would have. After all, he went to the Boulangerie, where you learn to slice and package and label chords, and here were chords that were not sliced and packaged and labeled in the Boulangerie! For him that was important; it wasn't important for some of us. So it has fulfilled all of these different needs for people as unlike as Copland and Sessions and Stravinsky. And that people could presume to be off-handed about anything that had this attraction for people of that caliber...don't ask.

So sayeth Milton

http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=1562

[karlhenning]

Beaut', Steve!

Two of my favorite bits:

But Aaron then said, "Oh my God, I discovered that by playing with these twelve-tone [whatever he called them, rows, probably], I found chords that I had never imagined before." Some people criticize, "What a superficial view of twelve-tone, he found chords he had never found before..." but I thought that was fine.

So it has fulfilled all of these different needs for people as unlike as Copland and Sessions and Stravinsky. And that people could presume to be off-handed about anything that had this attraction for people of that caliber...don't ask.

[greg]

My problems arise when the sounds I'm expected to appreciate are ugly and discordant. 

What about beatiful and discordant? I haven't listened to Penderecki for awhile....  0:)


I remember that first quote, Karl, the one with Copland. I actually like Copland's serial music but not any of the rest of his stuff.

[Bunny]

What about beatiful and discordant? I haven't listened to Penderecki for awhile....  0:)


I remember that first quote, Karl, the one with Copland. I actually like Copland's serial music but not any of the rest of his stuff.

beautiful and discordant are no problem. 

When I listen to serial music, if the individual parts don't sound beautiful, then I can't get any further.  That means that the Berg violin concerto has to be played extremely well for me.  Someone who just gets the notes right isn't going to reach me.  When you get down to it, when I listen to music it is an almost purely sensual experience.  If my senses are not ravished, it's a deal breaker.

[Cato]

beautiful and discordant are no problem. 

When I listen to serial music, if the individual parts don't sound beautiful, then I can't get any further.  That means that the Berg violin concerto has to be played extremely well for me.  Someone who just gets the notes right isn't going to reach me.  When you get down to it, when I listen to music it is an almost purely sensual experience.  If my senses are not ravished, it's a deal breaker.

(My emphasis)

That's true for anything, which is why I was disappointed with e.g. Alfred Brendel's rendition on Philips of Beethoven's last Piano Sonata #32.

When I listen to serial music, if the individual parts don't sound beautiful, then I can't get any further.

Which works specifically are you referring to?

[karlhenning]

I remember that first quote, Karl, the one with Copland. I actually like Copland's serial music but not any of the rest of his stuff.

Greg, I think it's a blast that Copland wanted Babbitt to write an article about his Piano Fantasy . . . have you heard the piece yet?

[greg]

Greg, I think it's a blast that Copland wanted Babbitt to write an article about his Piano Fantasy . . . have you heard the piece yet?

nope 
i've heard the Orchestral Variations and something else for piano, i think it was it was the Piano Variations- it was a long time ago. Good stuff, though.

have you listened to this CD? (it includes Piano Variations, too)


looks like a real treat! 

[karlhenning]

Yes, the Pasternack is an excellent disc!

[greg]

Yes, the Pasternack is an excellent disc!

ah, too bad my library doesn't have it.

but they do have this one:


with the Piano concerto, Orchestral Variations, 2nd Symphony, and Symphonic Ode.

i just found out the Orchestral Variations were based on the Piano Variations, lol.