Henning's Headquarters

[Luke]

I think in the third movement, which I am just looking at for the first time now, because you have what looks like a mixture of natural and artificial harmonics (for instance, I'm looking at b 24-7, which I would assume starts of as naturals but would have to end as artificials) you perhaps could indicate things a little more. I'm thinking as a cellist, and transposing down an octave....perhpas this passage would be easier played as artificial harmonics throughout, rather than jumping around for the natural ones and then ending up artificial for the last ones. So if you chose that, you should notate it, I think. You can notate it in Sibelius without too much trouble (just change the note head properties as appropriate) but it will mess up your MIDI, so be prepared to make two versions of the score for that reason!

[karlhenning]

Thanks!

[karlhenning]

Intuitively, I've thought I may need to do something about the last measure.  Our Man in Belgium reports:

and then just the very last chord seems a bit too complicated, because of the two superposed fifths that have to be played with the same finger.... I tried some of my tricks using alternative fingerings, but it's never convincing, intonation is always a bit (too much) off... the only option if you want to keep those notes would be to make the 'd-b' as an appogiatura to the 'f#-c#', and even in two separate bows, and even then you would probably always have some kind of parasite sound because of the finger that has to be 'de-placed' extremely quickly 'jumping strings'

and you lose the effect of the base d resonating because you have to leave the note (as I said in the previous mail, if you can keep it 'pressed down' even when the bow is not on that string anymore, it will continue resonating somehow, if you don't/can't you completely lose the 'bass'-perfume of the chord.)

What if we switch the B and C#, so that the four notes in ascending order are D / C# / F# / B . . . and the top three notes are in fourths rather than fifths?  Is that any easier? (Is it possible?)

[Cato]

Intuitively, I've thought I may need to do something about the last measure.  Our Man in Belgium reports:

What if we switch the B and C#, so that the four notes in ascending order are D / C# / F# / B . . . and the top three notes are in fourths rather than fifths?  Is that any easier? (Is it possible?)

Karl: one solution would be to play the notes and insert the low "bass" D before each one, i.e. D-C#-D-F#-D-B. 

Another Option: have the piano play the chord pianissimo while the viola works through the same notes.

[karlhenning]

I have been thinking of how to "activate" it rhythmically, if the sustain is impractical.

And of course, since it's the close of a large piece . . . one wants to get it right ; )

[karlhenning]

I'm glad that this problem arose,  actually. One of my nagging doubts was the ending of the second & third movements were too similar — and that the simple fade-out was a dissatisfying indefinite close to the piece as a whole.

I'm also glad that the 4:25 bus never showed up. I spent the time at the State Street bus stop composing a fresh ending.  And the 4:45 came alobg

Now, we'll see if the new ending is any good!

[Luke]

What if we switch the B and C#, so that the four notes in ascending order are D / C# / F# / B . . . and the top three notes are in fourths rather than fifths?  Is that any easier? (Is it possible?)

Yes, I'm sure it is possible; it would be a little uncomfy on the cello because of a stretch betweem the middle two notes, but on the viola I imagine it is fine.

However, I'd also have said that the original chord you have is OK, in fact much easier, so obviously the transferance from one instrument to the other isn't as direct as it might seem. With the suggestion you make here, the problem would be that the highest and lowest notes are played with the same finger. That's not inherently a problem on the cello, but if your Belgian friend says that the fingering of the first version, which on the cello would be 1 3 3 3, uses the same finger across too many strings, then I imagine that the new version, which on the cello would be 1 (extended)4 3 1, would be similarly problematic, maybe.

In general this point that your friend makes about sustaining chords is a good one, as I'm sure you had in mind as you composed - there are quite a few sustained chords in the viola which will rely on a solid and comfortable fingering to keep the lower notes resonating once the bow has left them.

[Luke]

Why not do something you haven't had in the piece yet, e.g. a left hand pizz.? You could - for example - do something like this:

[Luke]

(of course if this suggestion makes any kind of harmonic snese to you, you wouldn't need the pizz, as the open string will resonate anyway. But the pizz makes the lower note stand out more; only problem is it isn't a D!)

[karlhenning]

Thank you for all your discussion, Luke, and a brilliantly realized suggestion! (I was trending there harmonically, myself — to that re-distribution of the D & C, I mean.)

So those stacked fifths aren't so bad with one of the four fingers free (so that only three of the four strings are stopped, I mean)?

I think I am close to a new proposal for the ending.  Just have to wait for the home desktop to do its initial start-up background whatevers . . . .

[Luke]

So those stacked fifths aren't so bad with one of the four fingers free (so that only three of the four strings are stopped, I mean)?

As I said, on the cello - at least the way I play it! - they are fine anyway, with one finger across 3 strings. But if that's not OK on the viola, as your friend says, then it would be necessary to play with slanted fingers - I think that is what your firend is saying - then that would probably be 2, 3, 4 (I'm assuming), and in turn that would drag the 1st finger away from being able to play the D. With an open string at the bottom, of course, there's no problem, the slanting itself would be OK (again, I emphasize, I am guessing, based on the cello) and presumably could be fingered 1, 2, 3.

[karlhenning]

Thanks!  Another q.: is this problem vitiated if the chord is arpeggiated, would you guess? Without the need to have all four fingers set to stop strings at once, I mean . . . .

[Luke]

The problem is twofold, though, as i read it - 1) that the fingering is tricky; 2) that the bottom note is hard to sustain. Arpeggiating would help with 1) but not necessarily with 2) - it depends on the details of the arpeggiation, I suppose.

[karlhenning]

I follow, thanks!

You still there? I have a fresh page which I can shortly upload . . . .

[karlhenning]

How do you think this looks? . . .

(Re-voiced chord for the last cadence is courtesy of the Belgian violist.)

[Luke]

Oh yes, that looks nice and meaty - and the revoicing looks very good indeed, satisfying to play, I would imagine. One thought - the crescendo in 145 will obviously only be on the top two notes - would you like to bring the bottom ones into play again?. You could rearpeggiate the chord downwards at the end of that bar, perhaps, at the peak of the crescendo (maybe even with something in the piano too, otherwise it's not contributing to the crescendo at all). That would preempt the downwards slashings in the following bars, however, which you might or might not like.... well, just a thought.

[karlhenning]

Well bethought . . . .

[Cato]

Oh yes, that looks nice and meaty - and the revoicing looks very good indeed, satisfying to play, I would imagine. One thought - the crescendo in 145 will obviously only be on the top two notes - would you like to bring the bottom ones into play again?. You could rearpeggiate the chord downwards at the end of that bar, perhaps, at the peak of the crescendo (maybe even with something in the piano too, otherwise it's not contributing to the crescendo at all). That would preempt the downwards slashings in the following bars, however, which you might or might not like.... well, just a thought.

I have been away for several hours: Luke's ideas are most excellent, so let me add a vote!

A final idea for the crescendo in 144-145: have the viola trill or shake the 4 tones as quarter notes ascending upward - or downward.

[karlhenning]

All you gents are a fabulous resource, thank you!

In the event, Cato, I had already cast the die (so to speak) and that erstwhile final measure (closing on a decrescendo sustained note . . . really didn't like the thought of that here) became instead a 17-measure wind-sprint.

[karlhenning]

Compositionally, I'm prepared to think of it as done . . . that is, I no longer feel driven to any alteration, though as Dana works it up my ears remain open.

The only compelling unfinished business whose tug I feel is . . . I still need to add the detail in notating the harmonics.