Henning's Headquarters

[greg]

Absolutely - the same reason I don't feel shy about putting up my deeply flawed early efforts: because (IMO) these threads oughtn't to be merely a composer's shop window - mentioning no names - but a glimpse into his workshop and a chance for him to explore and explain and ramble.... That's why I value mine so much, anyway.

Yes, we all like to look inside and analyze the details of Karl's soul together. I once found a miniature clarinet keychain inside of it, with Stravinsky's autograph.

[karlhenning]

This week I was puttering with a passage in Fair Warning, a non-retrogradeable rhythm which does not round out to an even beat, thus repetition of the pattern provides fresh relations against the underlying meter. Not that this rhythmic game is The Thing (though it is, I think, playfully cool). It's one element which serves as a 'binding'. Both structural, and yet generating surface interest as well.

So, the non-ret. rhythm will 'round out' to the even crotchet after the fourth iteration. Decided to set a contrapuntal voice in the bass augmented by a factor of 3 (16th-note = dotted-eighth), and entering some eleven-ish bars in. So we've got (drumroll, please) . . . contrast (the two voices moving at different paces); unity (the two voices adhere to the same pattern); & convergence upon the same goal.

[Scarpia]

This week I was puttering with a passage in Fair Warning, a non-retrogradeable rhythm which does not round out to an even beat, thus repetition of the pattern provides fresh relations against the underlying meter.

Is it obvious how a rhythm can be non-retrogradeable?  Is it like Scriabin's Mysterium, if you retrograde it, the world comes to an end?

[karlhenning]

Hasn't come to an end yet (the world, I mean).  Basically a series of rhythmic values such that, in reversing the series, you again yield the series itself.  A kind of Augenmusik, I suppose . . . .

[Scarpia]

Hasn't come to an end yet (the world, I mean).  Basically a series of rhythmic values such that, in reversing the series, you again yield the series itself.  A kind of Augenmusik, I suppose . . . .

Well, I must say "non-retrogradable" is very strange nomenclature for something that is it's own retrograde. 

In math, the inverse of 2 is 1/2, the inverse of 3 is 1/3, and the inverse of 1 is 1/1 =  1.  So 1 is its own inverse, but that doesn't mean 1 is non-invertible.  If you want something that is non-invertible you can consider zero.  The inverse of 0 is 1/0, which is undefined.  Therefore 0 is non-invertible. 1 isn't non-invertible.

[karlhenning]

Perhaps, like "atonal," we can note the insufficiency of the term, while acknowledging that historic use makes it nevertheless the clearest term.

[Scarpia]

Perhaps, like "atonal," we can note the insufficiency of the term, while acknowledging that historic use makes it nevertheless the clearest term.

Ok, then, it seems like it is exceedingly easy to write rhythmically non-retrogradable melodies.  I guess we can claim that Mozart pioneered non-retrogradable rhythm in the theme of his symphony No 41, finale.



Maybe I'll try putting that claim in the Wikipedia page and see how long it stays in there.   

[greg]

Maybe I'll try putting that claim in the Wikipedia page and see how long it stays in there.   

I want to see it there! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-retrogradable_rhythm

[Scarpia]

I want to see it there! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-retrogradable_rhythm

No dice.  Can't edit that page unless you are part of some sort of music theory project.

[greg]

I don't know... it looks like you can. I'm working on it right now.


EDIT: I can't figure it out. I can get it to link to the image, but not display the image, so I didn't change it.

[karlhenning]

Four instances of the same rhythmic duration, reversed, is also four instances of the same rhythmic duration: amazing! ; )

The term, BTW, comes from Messiaen's Technique de mon langage musical.

[Scarpia]

Four instances of the same rhythmic duration, reversed, is also four instances of the same rhythmic duration: amazing! ; )

That is the point (two, actually).  1)  It is not accurate, because these the rhythms involved are perfectly retrogradable, they have the (perhaps) interesting property that they are the same as their retrograde.  The rest of the universe refers to this as a palindrome.  If you insist on using the word retrograde, they are self-retrogrades.  2)  There is nothing particularly unique or subtle about such rhythms since the dullest rhythmic figures have this property.

The term, BTW, comes from Messiaen's Technique de mon langage musical.

Which tends to reinforce my prejudice that Messiaen was not too bright.

Now, I'm starting to sense you wishing I had never come back.   

[karlhenning]

Well, your prejudices are not my contract, could not be.  But Messiaen not troubling himself to find a term which would be consistent with mathematics, hardly maps onto Messiaen not being too bright.  He was a composer, and spent his energies elsewhere.

Of the 16-year-old Martinů, Wikipedia notes:

In 1906 he became a violin student at the Prague Conservatory, where he studied briefly before being dismissed for "incorrigible negligence".

I suppose he wasn't very bright, either? Or, in this specific case, that he mustn't have had much aptitude for music.  We cannot expect artists to conform to pigeonholes.

[karlhenning]

Now, I'm starting to sense you wishing I had never come back.

Not a bit of it.

[Scarpia]

I suppose he wasn't very bright, either? Or, in this specific case, that he mustn't have had much aptitude for music.  We cannot expect artists to conform to pigeonholes.

I don't blame Martinu for getting kicked out.  Rebelliousness led to his unconventional style.  I'm not concerned with whether Messiaen got along with his teachers either.  I'm concerned with the fact that he came up with definitions which lack insight.  His "modes of limited transposition" are a similar case.  In both cases it is much more straightforward to describe the patterns as being symmetrical or periodic.  He also claimed that he had enunciated all possible modes of limited transposition, after which others were found.

[karlhenning]

The insights which concern (and inspire) me are Messiaen's musical insights.

[Franco]

Since the whole point of performing an operation such as retrograde on a phrase is to yield a related but different version of a motive, then a motive which was a rhythmic palindrome, in effect, would be a non-candidate for that kind of operation.  Non-retrogradeable is a term that may have limited usefulness, but is a useful term for music composition (btw, Scarpia, my spell checker does like it either).

[Scarpia]

Since the whole point of performing an operation such as retrograde on a phrase is to yield a related but different version of a motive, then a motive which was a rhythmic palindrome, in effect, would be a non-candidate for that kind of operation.  Non-retrogradeable is a term that may have limited usefulness, but is a useful term for music composition (btw, Scarpia, my spell checker does like it either).

I'm not saying the distinction isn't useful.  It may very well be useful.  It is poorly formulated.  The "nonretrogradable" rhythm certainly is retrogradable, it just transforms back to itself under retrograde.  Is it reasonable to say the number 1 is unsquareable because the square of 1 is still 1?  To say that it can't be retrograded is false.  It is an auto-retrograde, perhaps.  Or to use words already in the dictionary, it is symmetric, or a palindrome.

And since Messiaen wrote a fancy book on composition in which he declared that he discovered all possible "modes of limited transposition" after which numerous other modes were immediately found, I feel justified in stating that Messiaen wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Luke]

Whilst I can see exactly the point Scarps is making - and I had the same problem with Messiaen's terminology myself at one point - the crux of it is, Messiaen was a composer, not a mathematician. Which doesn't = me trying to excuse him for mathematical error, but which fact explains perfectly adequately, to my mind (which works similarly when it comes to musical matters, I think), how to him everything, and especially everything with a musical application, such as these rhythms and modes, was filtered through composition. The rhythms might be retrogradable, but for compositional purposes they aren't: 'this is one of those rhythms I can't use backwards' is how he would have thought of it, hence the terminology.

[karlhenning]

Whilst I can see exactly the point Scarps is making - and I had the same problem with Messiaen's terminology myself at one point - the crux of it is, Messiaen was a composer, not a mathematician. Which doesn't = me trying to excuse him for mathematical error, but which fact explains perfectly adequately, to my mind (which works similarly when it comes to musical matters, I think), how to him everything, and especially everything with a musical application, such as these rhythms and modes, was filtered through composition. The rhythms might be retrogradable, but for compositional purposes they aren't: 'this is one of those rhythms I can't use backwards' is how he would have thought of it, hence the terminology.

Ditto, ditto.