Elliott Carter versus John Williams

[Homo Aestheticus]

Whose music of these two American composers do you find more dramatic, taking the word 'dramatic' to mean stirring, exciting, exploiting every manner of expression and making a deep and cathartic impression ?

For me undoubtedly it's John Williams. The 1978 soundtrack to  Superman  alone will do it.

I also believe that between the two of them, Williams has a much better chance of entering the standard repertory.

[Joe_Campbell]

John Williams can get boring pretty quickly! I'd give Carter the benefit of the doubt based solely on hearing John Williams. I.E. "he has to be better than this guy."

[Wanderer]

Next, Céline Dion versus Sofia Gubaidulina! 

[Guido]

Erm... They compose for two entirely different genres, for different purposes... John Williams does not in general compose classical music - or rather 'art music', nor is it his intention to do so. When he has done, the results are often much better than expected - especially the Cello Concerto and Heartwood. I say this without bias - these two cello works are his finest pieces and worth a listen if you are at all interested in what he really is like as a composer...

Anyway, I like both for different reasons in their respecetive genres. Both are supremely accomplished at what they set out to compose.

[Joe_Campbell]

But Guido, which one best exploits every manner of expression in making a deep and cathartic impression?

[karlhenning]

For me undoubtedly it's John Williams.

For you, undoubtedly.

[karlhenning]

But Guido, which one best exploits every manner of expression in making a deep and cathartic impression?

Joe, you are a master of the referential italics!

[karlhenning]

John Williams can get boring pretty quickly!

Now it can be told! 

[Wendell_E]

Next, Céline Dion versus Sofia Gubaidulina! 

James Joyce vs. Barbara Cartland?

[karlhenning]

Picasso vs. Disney!

[Joe_Campbell]

Joe, you are a master of the referential italics!

I learn from the best.

[lukeottevanger]

James Joyce vs. Barbara Cartland?

[slaps head] Of course! But I think it's too late to recommend Babs to Sean now. After all, as the man said himself:

Art is a reflection of the fundamentals of reality, the pre-linguistic, pre-rational forces and potentials that move and guide us, and which we later give intellectual expression to. I refer you to Indian philosophy and the flow of the gunas, in the realm of the Dionysiac

....and I refer him to la Cartland. I think he'll enjoy this one:



Apparently there's one called 'Temptation for a Teacher' which perhaps he should avoid. 'Peaks of Ecstasy' sounds good, though...

[karlhenning]

"The flow of guano"; that's our Sean!

[71 dB]

John Williams vs Elliott Carter is like Apples vs Oranges. John Williams is in my opinion the greatest movie composer ever. Carter's music I don't know enough.

I voted J. W. 

[Joe_Campbell]

Whenever Sean types and the word Dionysiac shows up, that's about when I tune out.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Whenever Sean types and the word Dionysiac shows up, that's about when I tune out.

Good one...     

Me too, although I still enjoy reading his stuff.

[lukeottevanger]

It's fine to enjoy reading it, of course. It has a very sensuous and Dionysian quality. What is more, it has quite clearly been written without any preoccupation with the fallacies of 'intellectual rigour', of 'making sense'. In other words, one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent. As the man says

an intellectual understanding is a secondary matter

Like true Art, as he defines it, Sean's writing taps into the 'pre-rational'. And that, of course is just how he would want it.

[Joe_Campbell]

...one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent...

This sounds shockingly similar - and I suspect it might be intentional - to a certain 'view' of music I've heard argued fervently on this board.

[lukeottevanger]

Really? Oh yes, I suppose it does....well I never! 

[Homo Aestheticus]

It's fine to enjoy reading it, of course. It has a very sensuous and Dionysian quality. What is more, it has quite clearly been written without any preoccupation with the fallacies of 'intellectual rigour', of 'making sense'. In other words, one only needs to sit there and soak oneself in its gorgeousness, without worrying about whether it actually means anything coherent. As the man says

Like true Art, as he defines it, Sean's writing taps into the 'pre-rational'. And that, of course is just how he would want it.

Luke,

I fear, with respect, that a major point is being missed here.

Loving and appreciating music is nothing to do with "understanding" or "learning" about the composer, or the system of notation, or the "language" - or whether the idiom is based on an 8, 12 or 197,400 tone scale.

It is simply about an immediate, emotional, even spiritual, reaction.

You don't have to know anything about Allegri, or his music, to feel shivers up your spine when you listen to a great performance of his  Miserere.  It connects immediately with something archetypal within the human soul. Music that doesn't, isn't.