Elliott Carter versus John Williams

[greg]

and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

[Catison]

and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

An aestheticometer of course!

[Josquin des Prez]

and how would you go about measuring one against the next?

Just ask yours truly. My judgment is unassailable.

[greg]

Just ask yours truly. My judgment is unassailable.

where's your proof?

[CRCulver]

ANY music can be compared for it's aesthetic/cognitive qualities & values. Does the vision embody a deep spiritual quest? artistic truth? a true free inner voice? real meaning for ages? etc. or does the creator choose/aspire to confine himself to write wallpaper/pastiche picture music with nothing more under the surface?

I'm not sure it's that simple. Toru Takemitsu was highly influenced by the blatantly wallpaper music of Satie, but lots of people see great spiritual insight in Takemitsu's works.

[lukeottevanger]

I'm not sure it's that simple. Toru Takemitsu was highly influenced by the blatantly wallpaper music of Satie, but lots of people see great spiritual insight in Takemitsu's works.

...and in Satie's too (and very possibly more so). The 'wallpaper' aspect is not a million miles away from Cage's Zen: that's partly why Cage thought Satie the most important of 20th century composers.

[Josquin des Prez]

that's partly why Cage thought Satie the most important of 20th century composers.

Other then the fact Cage was a blatant idiot and a charlatan? Satie the most important 20th century composer. Right. Next you'll tell me that 4'33 is actually music.

[karlhenning]

Other then the fact Cage was a blatant idiot and a charlatan?

Poor quality of thought on your part, either adjective.

Ranks high on the Blinkered Reactionary Index, though.

[Josquin des Prez]

where's your proof?

Who needs proof when you are Zod? Kneel before me earthling.

[Josquin des Prez]

Poor quality of thought on your part, either adjective.

Ranks high on the Blinkered Reactionary Index, though.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

[Joe_Campbell]

Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential important composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

Fixed that for you

[karlhenning]

Perhaps you'd like to explain why when faced with a patently idiotic statement (Satie being the most influential composer of the 20th century) i cannot logically assume the the author of said statement isn't either an idiot or a complete canard.

The explanation is simplicity itself.

One statement, to which you take keen exception, does not make an idiot.

And to call Cage a charlatan, when you've heard — how much of his music, exactly? — shows you up for a fraud.

[lukeottevanger]

You're hanging a bit too much on this little statement, JQP - when I made it I didn't know it was going to be subjected to your intense scrutiny. 

FWIW, I wasn't quoting Cage, I was extrapolating from my memories of his writings on Satie. To Cage, Satie was more important than any other 20th century composer - Webern in a close second place, I believe - and this for perfectly cogent and reasonable musical reasons, from Cage's own viewpoint. Cage prioritised certain things in composition (to do with aesthetic stance, but also, more specifically, to do with the compositional use of proportion) which he saw no one else prioritising apart from Satie - and that being the case, I don't see why he shouldn't feel free to have the opinion of Satie that I'm attributing to him. (Though I can try to look out some quotations to back me up if I must).

And, you know what? - Cage and Satie having composed some of the most sensitively, subtly beautiful music of the 20th century, it really doesn't matter a jot what those who don't create beautiful music but simply whine about it think. Personally, I couldn't live without the Sonatas and Interludes, nor without Socrate and the Nocturnes...

[Joe Barron]

And, you know what? - Cage and Satie having composed some of the most sensitively, subtly beautiful music of the 20th century,

I agree with this. I've often said that if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he's be up there with Stravinsky today. His imagination was that good. Then he moved into aleatory stuff, the "music I do not have in mind," and even then, the results are often interesting, if sometimes unlistenable. (I can't bear the Freeman etudes, for example.) Copland once said of him that he didn' really care to write enduring masterpiees as to keep himself entertained for a few hours. That's accurate, but it doesn't make him an idiot or a charlatan.

[karlhenning]

I agree with this. I've often said that if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he'd be up there with Stravinsky today. His imagination was that good. Then he moved into aleatory stuff, the "music I do not have in mind," and even then, the results are often interesting, if sometimes unlistenable. (I can't bear the Freeman etudes, for example.) Copland once said of him that he didn't really care to write enduring masterpieces as to keep himself entertained for a few hours. That's accurate, but it doesn't make him an idiot or a charlatan.

Excellent précis, Joe.

All I'd add is that Cage and Satie are certainly powerfully alike, in their renunciation of The Masterpiece Ethic.

[karlhenning]

[ And, fine post, Luke. ]

[M forever]

if Cage had remained on the path he had set for himself in the 1940s, he's be up there with Stravinsky today

I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

[Joe Barron]

I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

[M forever]

I thought that was pretty funny, actually. No?

[Wanderer]

I think he actually is up there with Stravinsky now. Unless either he or Igor (or both) went to hell, then they are both down there now.

If either he or Igor went to hell, they wouldn't be both down there now.