"Why Won't God Heal Amputees?"

[Bulldog]

I was in one earlier, actually. A Catholic nun convent, if that is the right term. They called us because the Lord had decided to let their A/V presentation equipment go to hell (pun intended). I actually am more involved in the cinema/studio area, and A/V stuff is typically handled by our commercial sound department, but since they were all out and I couldn't come up with anything to pretend I was busy, so I went and fixed that for them. They were actually all very nice. So now, Jesus is back on screen, thanks to me!

God bless you.

[M forever]

That's what they said, too.

I said "sign here, please" (referring to the service report).

[Catison]

And that's one of the primary reasons why I hate to be located in a religious facility.  Tomorrow morning I'll be in one, and I'm already trying to get into the stupor mode.

Believing in something fervently often makes people want to talk about it...a lot.  This behavior isn't unique to religions, although I don't know a single religious person who doesn't feel like s/he needs to spread the message.  When you believe you've found the path toward true salvation, that experience is a little hard to contain.  Then there are those who feel like they are not following their religion if they don't tell everyone to convert.  Those people are plain annoying, and often do their faith a disservice.

But it isn't always that way.  Churches, especially Protestant churches, are more often community centers than places of worship.  When I was an Atheist, I used to play tuba in many churches for gigs.  Eventually I got used to it, because I realized people didn't really care.

Its kind of like going to the gym for the first time.  You think everyone is going to stare at you and think you're the fat one.  You think everyone will be really fit and look great and be training for marathons.  Then you get there are you are really self conscious, not knowing what you are doing.  But after awhile you realize no one cares who you are, and what you are doing.  If anything, they are glad someone else is taking care of themselves.

[karlhenning]

And that's one of the primary reasons why I hate to be located in a religious facility.

Well, like any worthwhile human endeavor, there are many who go about it wrong; even criminally wrong -- I mean, consider M:  isn't all his rude bluffness an attempt to cow people into being "better" (by his lights)?  And, does he much succeed?

I am inclined to think, Don, that you agree that the unexamined life is &c.  (And I am sure you examine your life.)  A large reason why we train ourselves to examine our life, is to the end of improving ourselves.  Not only improving our external lot, but improving our character.

Well, I've certainly found the input of other people (rather wiser than myself at various points in my life) of great value, to the end of improving myself.  (I am guessing that you do not object in principle to the idea of other people contributing to the betterment of one's character.)  And, in fact (in my experience), many of these people (and I owe far the greater part of my personal betterment to them) have been in the church.

Having said that, I can think immediately of a dozen churches I should run a mile in tight shoes rather than attend a service in them;  so I rather think I take your point  0:)

[karlhenning]

A Catholic nun convent, if that is the right term.

The right term, but (incidentally) redundant.  In English, convent implies nuns (a monastery for men would not be called a convent).

[M forever]

Well, like any worthwhile human endeavor, there are many who go about it wrong; even criminally wrong -- I mean, consider M:  isn't all his rude bluffness an attempt to cow people into being "better" (by his lights)?

No, it's just letting them know when they are talking BS.

Plus, often giving them better information and context.

Plus, rasing the level of the discussion from "I have no clue but, anyway, blablabla" to "I have this information and/or opinion for you, and here is the background".

But it's not trying to make them "better". I am not a missionary. I am just M.

And, does he much succeed?

Sometimes.

Well, I've certainly found the input of other people (rather wiser than myself at various points in my life) of great value, to the end of improving myself.  (I am guessing that you do not object in principle to the idea of other people contributing to the betterment of one's character.)

We can all benefit from such input, but not from self-appointed saints. From people who know and understand us (in other words, good friends) and who may have gone through similar experiences like ourselves and processed them. Not people applying rules from ancient fairy tales to other people's lives.

[karlhenning]

We can all benefit from such input, but not from self-appointed saints. From people who know and understand us (in other words, good friends) and who may have gone through similar experiences like ourselves and processed them. Not people applying rules from ancient fairy tales to other people's lives.

You're clouding things, which you are apt to do in your eagerness to express scorn.  "Self-appointment" is certainly insufferable, in a great many contexts.  Sometimes, self-appointed BS-criers, for instance.  It is not 'raising the level of discourse' to scream BS, when the actual matter is one of different opinion.

I won't even trouble to take the bait of your "fairy-tales."  You really have trouble treating the fellow who sees things differently to you, with the respect that person may well deserve?

Sorry I missed you on your way through the home-town.  I was still at the office when you rang;  and traffic being an exogenous variable . . . .

[M forever]

You're clouding things, which you are apt to do in your eagerness to express scorn.  "Self-appointment" is certainly insufferable, in a great many contexts.  Sometimes, self-appointed BS-criers, for instance.  It is not 'raising the level of discourse' to scream BS, when the actual matter is one of different opinion.

Have I ever accused you of BSing (I mean, in musical contexts)?

[karlhenning]

Have I ever accused you of BSing (I mean, in musical contexts)?

Point, please?

[Bulldog]

Well, like any worthwhile human endeavor, there are many who go about it wrong; even criminally wrong -- I mean, consider M:  isn't all his rude bluffness an attempt to cow people into being "better" (by his lights)?  And, does he much succeed?

M has nothing to do with my religious views.  But if I see him tomorrow at the temple, I'll give him a big hug.

[Bulldog]

That's what they said, too.

I said "sign here, please" (referring to the service report).

That was funny.

[M forever]

I also said, "you will get a heavenly bill". She looked at me a little puzzled, so I explained, "well, our office manager who processes all the service work and bills and all that is named Celine - which means the Heavenly". She thought that was really funny.

Point, please?

Point is, I don't "attack" people who have a different opinion if it is based on a solid background rather than something they have read somewhere but not understood or some biased nonsense they came up with randomly. I don't "attack" people either who do that but are open to a discussion. I just can't stand - in real life just as online - people who pretend to be or know things they aren't or don't. And I don't think you have any reason to complain about me being mean to you.

[karlhenning]

M has nothing to do with my religious views.  But if I see him tomorrow at the temple, I'll give him a big hug.

[karlhenning]

Point is, I don't "attack" people who have a different opinion if it is based on a solid background rather than something they have read somewhere but not understood or some biased nonsense they came up with randomly. I don't "attack" people either who do that but are open to a discussion. I just can't stand - in real life just as online - people who pretend to be or know things they aren't or don't. And I don't think you have any reason to complain about me being mean to you.

1.  Why "attack" people who have a different opinion, at all?  Why "attack" people who feel differently about discussion than you do?

2.  Keep in mind that the question arises in a discussion about religious beliefs.  Dismissing religious beliefs as "fairy-tales" or "some biased nonsense they came up with randomly" is arrogant and ill-mannered.  An inability to learn how to treat people who hold religious beliefs with some respect, does not reflect well on you.

3.  In general, a distaste for people "who pretend to be or know things they aren't or don't" is not a matter I have any quarrel to.  You apply that a little too readily, and a little too unthinkingly, in certain types of discussion.  This, too, is something very other than 'raising the level of discourse'.

4.  You have not accused me of BS, so far as I can tell, in any discussion.  I am not complaining, I am discussing.

[Catison]

I just can't stand - in real life just as online - people who pretend to be or know things they aren't or don't.

In your effort to provoke, you also show your extreme naivety of Christianity.  I don't mean to suggest that you should change your views or even consider the other side, but it is always more interesting to discuss with a knowledgeable person.  And, with statements like the above, you do your conviction against hypocrisy a great disservice.

[M forever]

What do you guys have against fairy tales? I think fairy tales are wonderful. I am a big fan of fairy tales, legends, epics, mythologies. I find them very fascinating phenomena of our cultural heritage.


BTW, Catison, you really don't want to get into a discussion of Christianity with me. Believe me. That would get really ugly. I know tons more about that subject than you do. And not just from the Catholic angle and a few other prep books you may have read, but from many other angles and historical perspectives, especially about early and earliest Christianity. That is a subject I have studied for for a long time as it coincides with main interests for me such as the above stated, as well as history, archaeology, and other areas such as linguistics which deeply fascinate me. Unlike you, I have actually read most of the NT in the original.

So when you crack me up a little bit because you somehow decided that Catholicism is the ultimate truth for you, I am not even (in that context) laughing about Catholicism in particular, but rather about the naive (and desperate?) and pretty much random and uninformed decision of someone to suddenly check his brain at the entrance and subscribe to a given form of organized religion. Because it somehow "convinced" you that it was the one and only truth. Even though, as you said yourself, you never got around to checking out most of the other belief systems which claim the exact same thing.

I know, that may come a little as a surprise. I know you run into a lot of people who make fun of that subject but know next to nothing about it. It is easy for you to counter their "arguments" with the scripted answers to which you have also treated us here. But in a really serious discussion, you would run out of those almost instantly. So let's save ourselves the typing time.

[karlhenning]

What do you guys have against fairy tales? I think fairy tales are wonderful. I am a big fan of fairy tales, legends, epics, mythologies. I find them very fascinating phenomena of our cultural heritage.

Excellent.

You were giving the impression, you know, that folks who have traffic with fairy-tales are, I dunno, verging on BS.

Of course, by BS you probably mean the abbreviation of some noble characteristic . . . .

[karlhenning]

. . . the naive (and desperate?) and pretty much random and uninformed decision of someone to suddenly check his brain at the entrance and subscribe to a given form of organized religion.

I think we need to consider the actual meaning of random.

Hmm. "Checking his brain at the entrance" . . . "a given form of organized religion."  Yes, no remote possibility of reading that as an insult, right?

[M forever]

Let me think about that for a moment...no, I don't think a self-confident grownup would read that as a real insult. Especially not one who has found eternal truth.

That's just the impression someone makes on me when he tells me he didn't use to believe in anything, but then, he thought the supernatural might be real after all (which is a very reasonable thought as such), so let's see, who offers it as a complete package, oh, there are so many, hey, I don't have all the time (and patience?) to look into all of these, let's just go with the next best one and start quoting the scripted answers.

[Catison]

BTW, Catison, you really don't want to get into a discussion of Christianity with me. Believe me. That would get really ugly. I know tons more about that subject than you do. And not just from the Catholic angle and a few other prep books you may have read, but from many other angles and historical perspectives, especially about early and earliest Christianity. That is a subject I have studied for for a long time as it coincides with main interests for me such as the above stated, as well as history, archaeology, and other areas such as linguistics which deeply fascinate me. Unlike you, I have actually read most of the NT in the original.

I am sorry, but I thought we were discussion Christianity.  I would be honored to discuss this topic with you, because you obviously have a lot to teach, if you have so carefully studied the subject.  As you already know, I am in a turning point in my life, and this subject is at the top of my interests.  Like you, this fascinates me.

And forgive me for mistaking your knowledge.  I have missed a post or two, and I don't think I've read your religious arguments before.

I know, that may come a little as a surprise. I know you run into a lot of people who make fun of that subject but know next to nothing about it. It is easy for you to counter their "arguments" with the scripted answers to which you have also treated us here. But in a really serious discussion, you would run out of those almost instantly. So let's save ourselves the typing time.

I have said many times that what I was writing was from the Catholic perspective, so it is probably natural that it appears scripted.  My own learning has come mostly from the Church documents, and, for whatever reason, these have seemed to elucidate these issues in profound ways that I hadn't considered.  I am, however, a new student, so bear with me.

I would honestly be interested in your opinion on some of these matters.  What books have been the most influential in your studies?  Have you found one source you value more than all others?

Or if you have a post or two which you think might summarize your views, then point me toward those.  I know how easily these "big" discussion can take up your time.