Carlos Chavez (1899-1978)

[snyprrr]

Erato was spot on with his review of the 3 SQs. I got this cd expecting great things, and yes, dullish would be the description. Haydn+Roy Harris (whose chamber music also doesn't live up to the syms.) The Soli II for string trio (1965) is a different matter. As I love saying, many composers of this generation (V-L, Malipiero, Bloch, Chavez, Rawsthorne, et al) experienced a hardening of their language, post war. Chavez developed his "non-repetition" principle, which mirrors the "cellular metamorphoses" techniques of Pijper and Holmboe and the such.

The Southwest Chamber ens. seems to be recording all of Chavez's chamber music (I think they've also won a couple of Grammys for this series), 4 vols. of which were at Enoch Pratt libr. in Baltimore, and there are a few interesting things there (either from the 20s or 60s), but I find that the Dorian cd of Chavez chamber music puts some of the best on one cd. My fav work is Energia (1925) for ens., a work which frankly sounds just a little like Xenakis to me. Very wild in a Varese kind of way, very experimental for Chavez.

I used to have the Vox syms., and I noticed how syms. 3-6 sounded a LOT like Hindemith...a LOT. I liked 'em.

The first 2 syms. do have an incredible Mayan/Aztec soundworld, though. The "famous" one, I think, got a great recording by TilsonThomas on Argo.

But for some REAL Mexican music you'll have to go to Revueltas. The SQs (by the same team), the RCA 2cd retrospective, and the chamber disc on Dorian almost complete this composer's fairly small work list.

[Dax]

So the Dorian cd is worth investigating? Is that the one containing Energia, Tambuco and Xochipilli?

[Guido]

I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?

[Dundonnell]

I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?

In a word- Yes!

The symphonies are rich, colourful and dramatic and-to my ears-more interesting than those by, say, Villa-Lobos.

An extract from the Sinfonia India conducted by Dudamel with the Berlin Philharmonic(who I cannot imagine had ever played much if any Chavez before!)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lc-T1Jvvvs

[Daverz]

I played The Sinfonia India in orchestra once and thought it rather amateurishly done - is he worth exploring then?

Amateurishly composed or amateurishly played?  The Sinfonia India, his most popular work,  is not typical Chavez.  I recommend trying the Everest CD of Symphonies 1, 2 and 4 with the composer conductiong the NYP.  The Chavez 4th makes a very nice companion to the Piston 4th.

http://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Chávaez-Sinfonia-Antigona-Romantica/dp/B001885BZC

Also, the Southwest Chamber Music series of Chavez chamber works is fantastic.

[Guido]

Amateurishly composed or amateurishly played?  The Sinfonia India, his most popular work,  is not typical Chavez.  I recommend trying the Everest CD of Symphonies 1, 2 and 4 with the composer conductiong the NYP.  The Chavez 4th makes a very nice companion to the Piston 4th.

http://www.amazon.com/Carlos-Chávaez-Sinfonia-Antigona-Romantica/dp/B001885BZC

Also, the Southwest Chamber Music series of Chavez chamber works is fantastic.

I meant composed, but I guess we played it amateurishly too! I just found the the whole thing lacked subtlety, the orchestration was coarse and far too thickly scored, the ideas were a little asinine... I also found myself rolling my snobbish eyes and thinking "Well done Chavez, you've discovered 5/8 as a time signature." !!

I am a big fanof Piston though, so I will definitely check that CD out. Cheers!

[Dundonnell]

Oh well...maybe the Sinfonia India was not the best place to start then

The Vox box(LSO/Mata) has all six symphonies and Nos. 1(Sinfonia de Antigona) and No.4(Sinfonia Romantica) are certainly worth hearing! There is/was an ASV disc with both these symphonies played by the Royal Philharmonic and Mexico City Philharmonic conducted by Enrique Batiz which is worth the investment. (Batiz was a fine conductor-not heard of him recently though.)

[vandermolen]

I agree that Chavez is well worth exploring. The craggy Sinfonia de Antigona reminds me of Havergal Brian - perhaps a deeper work than the (very enjoyable) Sinfonia India.

The CD below is my favourite:

[snyprrr]

So the Dorian cd is worth investigating? Is that the one containing Energia, Tambuco and Xochipilli?

Yes.

I just found the the whole thing lacked subtlety, the orchestration was coarse and far too thickly scored, the ideas were a little asinine... I also found myself rolling my snobbish eyes and thinking "Well done Chavez, you've discovered 5/8 as a time signature." !!

It's a fresco!!!

[snyprrr]

No offence, Guido, but I am fantasizing about a hapless composer who happens to get an orchestra full of Guidos to premiere his opus1. The orchestra that strikes fear into the heart of composers everywhere,haha ! Would the quality of music today be better if we had THAT setup??? :Dhmmm...

"Arnold...it's just that...mmm....your piece sucks. Mmm...please...try again."

[Guido]

No offence, Guido, but I am fantasizing about a hapless composer who happens to get an orchestra full of Guidos to premiere his opus1. The orchestra that strikes fear into the heart of composers everywhere,haha ! Would the quality of music today be better if we had THAT setup??? :Dhmmm...

"Arnold...it's just that...mmm....your piece sucks. Mmm...please...try again."

In general, I think I have a very open mind and like composers of every genre, style, period, philosophical and political persuasion, level of dissonance, 'difficulty' etc... the fact that I am willing to explore more of a composer's work despite disliking what I have already heard of theirs should speak to this! In fact there is hardly a 20th century composer that I do not like to some degree... that said, I can't be expected to like everything. I think that you are in general far more dismissive of more works than I am! (I won't embarrass you with examples from this forum!) 

I admire Arnold very much - lots of pieces by him I really like - concerto for 2 violins, sinfoniettas, serenade - the only piece by him that I have smack-talked is the terrible cello concerto - and I'm hardly alone in this - it got univerally terrible reviews, and it was so bad in fact that Julian Lloyd Webber, the cellist who comissioned it, wouldn't record it.

[pjme]

For those who like percussion music : both Tambucco and Toccata are good, fun pieces for "standard" percussion instruments . I have also an older recording of Chavez massive pianoconcerto ( ca 40 mins.) Must listen again - it didn't make a favorable impression some time ago....

Peter

[gomro]

For those who like percussion music : both Tambucco and Toccata are good, fun pieces for "standard" percussion instruments . I have also an older recording of Chavez massive pianoconcerto ( ca 40 mins.) Must listen again - it didn't make a favorable impression some time ago....

Peter

I have two recordings of the Piano Concerto, one with Eugene List as soloist and Chavez himself conducting the Vienna State Opera Orch., one with  Maria Teresa Rodriguez, piano - Eduardo Mata conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra.  The List is sort of strange -- it's as if he was playing just a microsecond ahead.  The Rodriguez/Mata is much better. Neither, as far as I know, Has been releaded on CD.

[snyprrr]

Moi, dismissive, no?
But I will dismiss Chavez's piano sonatas as Haydnesque trifles.  0:)I think comparisons between Chavez and Harris would be interesting...but not for long!

though, I can see the banality of the music when compared to the brutality of the muse

[pjme]

I have two recordings of the Piano Concerto, one with Eugene List as soloist and Chavez himself conducting the Vienna State Opera Orch., one with  Maria Teresa Rodriguez, piano - Eduardo Mata conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra.  The List is sort of strange -- it's as if he was playing just a microsecond ahead.  The Rodriguez/Mata is much better. Neither, as far as I know, Has been released on CD.

On a double MCA Millenium CD AD2 80086 the pianoconcerto was reissued. ( with Mc Dowell 2 pianoconcerti and Sonata tragica / Woodland sketches )
I'm listening.... Chavez 1938-1940 pianoconcerto is a big, busy work with a huge 20 mins. first movement ( Largo, ma non troppo - Allegro agitato), a ca 10 mins. Molto lento and a 6.25 mins. Allegro finale.
The first movement is very nervous, ever shifting, driving, motoric, almost repetitive....I 'm reminded of Villa Lobos in his most serious, ambitious vein.
strange...interesting...

Hmmm - it's a real marathon for piano & orchestra. Exhausting. No doubt, Chavez has the "clout" to make a bold statement ( brillant pianism, original orchestration ,with prominent brass, harp, celesta, percussion, )- but I missed definition, clarity....Still, a musical jungle of some weight.
P.

[Daverz]

But I will dismiss Chavez's piano sonatas as Haydnesque trifles.

Haydn's piano sonatas are not trifles, snippy.

[DFO]

Try his violin concerto (Szering-Chavez)

[Superhorn]

  I also have the Mata/LSO set of the symphonies and enjoy them.
  It's surprising that the Sinfonia India isn't played more often;it's such a colorful and exuberant work.
I remember the piano concerto from the RCA Lp,and this should also be taken up by more of today's pianists, possibly Gabriela Montero or Ingrid Fliter,who are from South America. We need a first-rate new recording on CD,and the older ones should also be reissued. Posibly Gustavo Dudamel will give us more Chavez when he takes over in LA next season.
  Eduardo Mata (1942-1995) was a pupil of Chavez andwas a composer as well as a fine conductor. His untimely death in a crash of his private plane was a real tragedy.

[snyprrr]

Haydn's piano sonatas are not trifles, snippy.

I was so rude when I got here, haha.



I am reaquainting myself with the SouthWestChamber series from the library. Yes, there is some of Chavez that snores me, but there is so much that reminds me of Varese or Xenakis. And, ultimately, Chavez is such a Romantic figure for me, all that mysterious Mexican stuff and,...brrr,ooohh... chilly, haha!

On this Vol.4 they have a lot of the same pieces as on that great Dorian chamber disc, but one piece that stood out as a very Revueltas kind of piece (and Chavez's only piece dedicated to Revueltas), Cantos de Mexico, for Mexican orchestra. It's 3 mvmts. in 6mins., and it is just the most fun you'll have with your clothes on. It's definitely stereotypical, but in the most exquisitely crafted way. Perfect!

Another piece, Lamentaciones, for Mezzo, flute, oboe, and two Mexican percussions, is very brief and moving. Two song cycles, Tres Exagonos, and Otros Tres Exagonos, with the Dali-esque SQ configuration of flute/piccolo, oboe/EH, viola, and bassoon, is really something unique and interesting. It reminds me that Chavez is a pusher of things.

A highlight is the original chamber version of the Sym No.1, Antigone. It has that same Greek sound. Great! It reminds me a bit of Falla's Harpsicord Concerto.

The 9min Partita for tympani didn't seem as STOP THE PRESSES as the notes wanted me to believe, but, as a final makeweight to this percussive edition of the series, it fits just fine. I'm hoping to make a compilation cd of al the highlights of the series later.



Does anyone else have any of the Cambria chamber cds, Vols. 1-4?

[karlhenning]

I bought a disc of his three string quartets (played by the Quarteto Latinoamerica) and found very little of the adventureness of his orchestral music (which I admittedly tend to think occasionally turns more to mannerism than into very interesting music). Initially I fund the quite dull, after 3 listens I find them OK but not very original and communicative (that is, with little to say).

I like this disc fine.