Author Topic: Franz Liszt (1811-86)  (Read 56886 times)

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karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #120 on: April 08, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »
I always suspected that Liszt invented jazz!

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #121 on: April 08, 2010, 12:47:28 PM »
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html


Quote
If Chopin's music is a temptress, Liszt's is the buxom nubile jailbait next door, ready to throb your heart, burst your balls, and whack your brain out.
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)

DavidW

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #122 on: April 08, 2010, 12:57:46 PM »
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life.

Well I'll admit that I wouldn't want my balls burst and my brain whacked, doesn't sound pleasant! :D

George

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2010, 12:58:33 PM »
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)

Not at work anyway.  ;D

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2010, 01:03:32 PM »
Did Prokofiev ever look towards Liszt for inspiration? (I should probably know this, but it's been years since I read a biography or his autobiography)...


Here's the Prokofiev sound before Prokofiev was even born:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Nm4hSAMu_Co" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Nm4hSAMu_Co</a>
It's like a foreshadowing of pieces like the Dm Toccata or 2nd Sonata, especially.

I bet there's something of his that sounds exactly like Scriabin, too, but I just haven't found it yet. This one is close, though. I also remember hearing bits of an orchestral work that sounded exactly like Prokofiev- it might've been the Dante Symphony, though I'm not completely sure.

Also, even though I did say that I saw stuff that points to Schoenberg, I have to say that so far I've only heard stuff that points to early Schoenberg- specifically, stuff like the op.11 3 Piano Pieces. Probably there isn't anything that would point to later Schoenberg, since he evolved his own style himself.

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2010, 01:17:01 PM »
Also, even though I did say that I saw stuff that points to Schoenberg, I have to say that so far I've only heard stuff that points to early Schoenberg- specifically, stuff like the op.11 3 Piano Pieces. Probably there isn't anything that would point to later Schoenberg, since he evolved his own style himself.

Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.

Bulldog

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #126 on: April 08, 2010, 01:38:40 PM »
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)

Oh my God!  That googling leads to pornography - now my day is ruined. ;D

Offline Marc

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2010, 01:51:00 PM »
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html

Quote
If Chopin's music is a temptress, Liszt's is the buxom nubile jailbait next door, ready to throb your heart, burst your balls, and whack your brain out.
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)
TOO LATE!
I just did, and my balls got burst!
Thanks a lot, GMG & Internet!
>:(
Help support the GMG Classical Music Forum by purchasing from Amazon using this link, this link, or this link

Bulldog

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #128 on: April 08, 2010, 02:03:37 PM »
Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.

Was any cloning involved?

Scarpia

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #129 on: April 08, 2010, 02:13:43 PM »
Was any cloning involved?

They didn't have cloning in those days.  It was parthenogenesis, I believe.

Offline jowcol

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2010, 02:47:24 PM »
The other sentence I could not get over was

Quote
The prelude set in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier is sufficient to dwarf Chopin's ass.

Something tells me that googling a couple of keywords in that sentence would also bring up a couple interesting sites and images I would not care to dwell upon.  (Or at least admit to in public...)
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #131 on: April 08, 2010, 03:46:47 PM »
Oh my God!  That googling leads to pornography - now my day is ruined. ;D
:D
Well, the way my Web of Trust reads, if you wanna get a virus...


The other sentence I could not get over was

The prelude set in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier is sufficient to dwarf Chopin's ass.

Something tells me that googling a couple of keywords in that sentence would also bring up a couple interesting sites and images I would not care to dwell upon.  (Or at least admit to in public...)

Lol... scary idea it brought up in my mind. You know the character for the Lucky Charms cereal?
An inappropriate picture with him saying, "I'm magically delicious!"
 :-\

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #132 on: April 08, 2010, 03:53:48 PM »
Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.
Yeah, cuz of Brahms' ball busting radical harmony...
wait, aren't  you the guy that just laughed at Schoenberg's essay "Brahms the Modernist"? I'm not sure if you're serious or just kidding around...


 

karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #133 on: April 08, 2010, 04:21:18 PM »
But, on a modern piano, the Bach preludes are just too froo-froo.  Pretty, dainty, nicely turned, of course.  Part of what I love about the Chopin and Liszt catalogues is, they are written to take advantage of the character and capacity of the piano, and both composers pushed that capacity.
 
The Bach pieces are nice, but they're also mix-&-match.  Almost doesn't matter which instrument they're played on.  The music sounds dandy on any instrument(s), but the music doesn't belong to any particular timbre.

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #134 on: April 08, 2010, 04:28:13 PM »
Yeah, cuz of Brahms' ball busting radical harmony...

Ho, but radical harmony isn't the only thing that characterizes the music of Schoenberg (Schoenberg's harmony being derived mostly from Mahler anyway). Extremely tight counterpoint and what can only be referred to as " intervallic syncopation" are also employed profusely, and he took that from Brahms.  Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAERQ92DOOQ

Don't mind the performance, focus on the vertical elements. Without this level of vertical sophistication the works of Schoenberg wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to listen to, extreme harmony and all.

wait, aren't  you the guy that just laughed at Schoenberg's essay "Brahms the Modernist"? I'm not sure if you're serious or just kidding around...

Did i? I have a terrible memory, i don't quite remember what i may have said in that regard.

DavidW

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #135 on: April 08, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »
Karl, I just don't think that pretty and dainty describe Bach.  Sublime.  Magnificent.  Profound.  Now those words describe Bach. 8)

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #136 on: April 08, 2010, 04:32:19 PM »
But, on a modern piano, the Bach preludes are just too froo-froo.  Pretty, dainty, nicely turned, of course.  Part of what I love about the Chopin and Liszt catalogues is, they are written to take advantage of the character and capacity of the piano, and both composers pushed that capacity.

True, except Liszt pushed a lot harder, harder then most, before or since. Indeed, he doesn't seem to have left much of a legacy in that regard. Pianists still use the piano as a mix between a percussive and harmonic instrument, nobody seems capable of making the instrument speak the way Liszt did (the exception being, perhaps, Debussy). Of course, Chopin was still the greater genius for exploring the deepest regions of his soul rather then his finger tips.

The Bach pieces are nice, but they're also mix-&-match.  Almost doesn't matter which instrument they're played on.  The music sounds dandy on any instrument(s), but the music doesn't belong to any particular timbre.

Good grief, it appears you still have much learning to do. The music is simply too dense to be considered "dandy". Layers upon layers of musical ideas interlacing within minuscule spaces of time, inch after inch. Its almost inhuman. Plus each prelude employs so many forms and styles of the time, from french overtures to toccatas or even italian concertos, like the following: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bd_70ZI9hs

The level of greatness of this music is almost too much to handle. One could listen to it for decades and still find something new, something fresh. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 04:43:14 PM by Josquin des Prez »

karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #137 on: April 08, 2010, 04:53:41 PM »
Poor Liszt. First his thread is hijacked by Wagner, then by Bach ; )

Someday, we'll get to talk about Liszt here.

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #138 on: April 08, 2010, 04:56:41 PM »
Speaking of Liszt (ho hey!) i have a recording of his later works arranged for orchestra:

http://www.amazon.com/Franz-Liszt-Orchestrated-conducted-Selmeczi/dp/B000066SKQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270778156&sr=8-5



Quite an interesting take.

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #139 on: April 08, 2010, 05:21:54 PM »
Ho, but radical harmony isn't the only thing that characterizes the music of Schoenberg (Schoenberg's harmony being derived mostly from Mahler anyway). Extremely tight counterpoint and what can only be referred to as " intervallic syncopation" are also employed profusely, and he took that from Brahms.  Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAERQ92DOOQ

Don't mind the performance, focus on the vertical elements. Without this level of vertical sophistication the works of Schoenberg wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to listen to, extreme harmony and all.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "intervallic syncopation"...

"Harmony mostly derived from Mahler..." ummm I do hear little influences that might be from Mahler, but the only connection I get from those two are in terms of orchestration. Schoenberg was on the cutting edge of orchestration at his time- definitely Mahler and Strauss would be his two influences. To me, the scoring for Mahler's 7th and Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra give away the influence.

As for harmony, Mahler had moments where he pushed harmony to its limits, but Liszt did that more than Mahler ever did, 20+ years earlier- even Wagner pushes the boundaries more than Mahler did. I think it would be quite a jump from Mahler to atonal music, and even if you did jump, it would be from something like Mahler's 6th or 10th to Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces. I don't hear anything by Mahler that foreshadows Schoenberg's op.11.


Did i? I have a terrible memory, i don't quite remember what i may have said in that regard.
Found it!  8)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7504.msg186846.html#msg186846