Author Topic: Franz Liszt (1811-86)  (Read 56879 times)

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Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #140 on: April 08, 2010, 06:16:27 PM »
I'm not really sure what you mean by "intervallic syncopation"...

If you think about it, counterpoint is essentially a form of harmony based on intervals. Consequently, any form of syncopation applied to a contrapuntal voice can be considered intervallic.

I think it would be quite a jump from Mahler to atonal music, and even if you did jump, it would be from something like Mahler's 6th or 10th to Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces. I don't hear anything by Mahler that foreshadows Schoenberg's op.11.

True. Mahler himself was a little dubious of the direction pioneered by Schoenberg and would have probably refrained from going that far, had he lived longer. However, there is a quality to Schoenberg's use of harmony as an expressive tool (as opposed to a purely technical device) which i found profoundly Mahlerian. The relationship between the two composers was a deeply spiritual one (hence, the saint remark) rather then a technical one.

Of course, ultimately, the chief element of Schienberg's method was not harmonic chromaticism per-se, nor was it really about the emancipation of dissonance, as he so vehemently stated. The revolutionary element in his music is the concept of the klangfarbenmelodie (tone-color melody). It is this idea, above all, that defines the second Viennese school (Webern in particular), and this too is essentially an off-shoot of the way Mahler often relied on tone color as a mean for melodic and harmonic development, all though there is a giant leap from that to using harmonics the same way the other used pitches. Indeed, Mahler was somewhat dubious of this approach when Schoenberg confided with him about it, though he eventually employed his own personal variant in his ninth symphony. Thus, the relationship between the two composers is one of thesis and antithesis, one being a conservative modernist, the other being a revolutionary one. Schoenberg's progressive ideas of course came from a whole different type of sources, from Wagner, to Strauss to Debussy to Reger and so forth.

Found it!  8)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7504.msg186846.html#msg186846

Ha yes. My objection there was on Schoenberg's choice of words. There's nothing inherently progressive in what Brahms was doing, even though it influenced so many 20th century composers. Listen to Enescu for instance. He employed the very same contrapuntal approach that influenced Schoenberg but there's nothing inherently "progressive" about the music of the first. What Brahms was doing almost harks back to the rhythmical sophistication of the late medieval and Renaissance polyphonists. I think ultimately, what Schoenberg really saw about Brahms was the severe rigor of his music, the same type of rigor necessary to bring out the klangfarbenmelodie to its full fruition (a type of rigor which Webern would explore to its ultimate level of degree). There is no such rigor in the works of either Wagner or Liszt, no matter how harmonically advanced they may be.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 06:20:48 PM by Josquin des Prez »

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #141 on: April 08, 2010, 06:35:30 PM »
BTW, since you were speaking of Schoenberg's piano works before, i would recommend the following recording by Paul Jacobs, assuming you are not already aware of it:

http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoenberg-Piano-Music/dp/B000005IVQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270783918&sr=8-1

The ability of this pianist to resolve all the rigorous array of overtones is remarkable. That he makes it sound so fresh and spontaneous is amazing. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 06:39:59 PM by Josquin des Prez »

Saul

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #142 on: April 08, 2010, 08:40:29 PM »
I remember listening to the first piano concerto of Liszt when I was 13 or 14 and I was astonished. From the first listening I went and listened to it for a few weeks almost every day. I totally loved it and was amazed by it. Liszt was way more modern for his time, but in a good postive way... hey if he wouldnt have been modern, he wouldnt have been Liszt.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 08:44:58 PM by Saul »

Offline Florestan

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #143 on: April 08, 2010, 10:29:32 PM »
Quote from: Xah Lee
Liszt is the father of impressionism — a entire genre of piano music, of which Brahms, Bizet, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Debussy all kowtow and pay homage.

A real gem, if ever there was one.

Impressionism a genre of piano music? Brahms, Bizet and Rachmaninoff impressionists?
Bizet a composer of piano music?   :o :o :o

Somebody please send this guy to school!
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #144 on: April 09, 2010, 03:15:31 AM »

The music is simply too dense to be considered "dandy". Layers upon layers of musical ideas interlacing within minuscule spaces of time, inch after inch. Its almost inhuman.

The level of greatness of this music is almost too much to handle. One could listen to it for decades and still find something new, something fresh.

Of Bach, and on the whole I wouldn't disagree. It's just a pity that you seem incapable of appreciating this density in the music of the many other composers who achieved it. Yes, even Liszt was capable of it and, on the whole, I find it extremely human, thank goodness!
A day may be a destiny; for life
Lives in but little—but that little teems
With some one chance, the balance of all time:
A look—a word—and we are wholly changed.

karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #145 on: April 09, 2010, 04:24:20 AM »
Quote
Poor Liszt. First his thread is hijacked by Wagner, then by Bach ; )

Someday, we'll get to talk about Liszt here.

MN Dave

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #146 on: April 09, 2010, 04:25:35 AM »
I don't think Liszt often makes favorite composer lists.

karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #147 on: April 09, 2010, 04:41:19 AM »
We could at least talk about him in a thread bearing his name, rather than indulge a habitual disruptor in his insistence on discussing Composers of Geeeenius instead.

snyprrr

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #148 on: April 09, 2010, 05:30:55 AM »
Well, I'm going to try to veer the conversation towards 'Rare Pieces', 'Late Pieces', and 'Leslie Howard'.



I'm trying to avert a full-blown Lisztomania, so I'm trying to see if there are any 'perfect' recitals for me. I'm trying to avoid the Sonata, but that seems improbable.

I've seem three different cds of 'Late Pieces'. Does anyone have Howard's measure here? Reviewers say Howard starts pieces at full throttle, but then poops out half way through. Pollini's recital fills up the Sonata with all Late Pieces. There is a 'Late' recital on Astree, and then, another small label no name.

Anyone have any Howard 'must haves'?



Is there a site where Liszt's piano music is separated by category, or some way of making the output easier to digest by sight? Trust me, if I can't get any help I'll have to post piece-by-piec e, haha. Remember the Haydn SQ Thread? Hahaha!! No, I'm just kidding, haha.

Are Brendel's 'Annees 1-2' really not that good? Bad sound?



Oh, how many questions I have!

karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2010, 05:39:04 AM »
Well, I'm going to try to veer the conversation towards 'Rare Pieces', 'Late Pieces', and 'Leslie Howard'.

One of my favorite discs is a collection of late works, most of them cello & piano, played on an Érard piano of Liszt's day.

DavidW

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #150 on: April 09, 2010, 05:46:19 AM »
I'm trying to avert a full-blown Lisztomania, so I'm trying to see if there are any 'perfect' recitals for me. I'm trying to avoid the Sonata, but that seems improbable.

Why?  Don't like it or because you're satisfied?  Richter's performance is stunning some of the best music making you can find IMO. 0:)



snyprrr

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #151 on: April 09, 2010, 05:56:30 AM »
Why?  Don't like it or because you're satisfied?  Richter's performance is stunning some of the best music making you can find IMO. 0:)

I'm just trying to keep different 'forms' separate. You won't catch me mixing up my food on my plate, eeewwww!! I just want all morose, dark Liszt on one album, as if Poe were the programmer.

I am way out on my Liszt-listening. I've been on this path before, and I wish I hadn't dumped all my piano cds. I just wish the library had a selection of Howard. All I have from the library now are the Brendel Sonata recital (Philips) and the Bolet 'various' one cd (Decca), nothing rare.

Ah, another rabbit hole,... and just when I got out of that 'pre-1800 SQ' phase. THEY PULL YOU BACK IN!!!

......aaaaAAAAAHHHHHHHHHhhhhh......

DavidW

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #152 on: April 09, 2010, 06:02:46 AM »
I'm just trying to keep different 'forms' separate. You won't catch me mixing up my food on my plate, eeewwww!! I just want all morose, dark Liszt on one album, as if Poe were the programmer.

Oh that's cool, understood. :)  What other dark Liszt pieces would you rec?  That's the Liszt I love. :)

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #153 on: April 09, 2010, 06:08:39 AM »
Is there a site where Liszt's piano music is separated by category, or some way of making the output easier to digest by sight?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Liszt_%28S.1_%E2%80%93_S.350%29


karlhenning

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #154 on: April 09, 2010, 06:27:24 AM »
Oh that's cool, understood. :)  What other dark Liszt pieces would you rec?  That's the Liszt I love. :)

La gondola lugubre, of course (in its various forms) . . . the Csárdás macabre and the Valses oubliées, pronto!

DavidW

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #155 on: April 09, 2010, 07:20:10 AM »
Thanks dude. :)

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #156 on: April 09, 2010, 09:37:14 AM »

greg

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #157 on: April 09, 2010, 10:53:18 AM »
If you think about it, counterpoint is essentially a form of harmony based on intervals. Consequently, any form of syncopation applied to a contrapuntal voice can be considered intervallic.
Yep.


True. Mahler himself was a little dubious of the direction pioneered by Schoenberg and would have probably refrained from going that far, had he lived longer. However, there is a quality to Schoenberg's use of harmony as an expressive tool (as opposed to a purely technical device) which i found profoundly Mahlerian. The relationship between the two composers was a deeply spiritual one (hence, the saint remark) rather then a technical one.
Kinda like how some guitarists are inspired by and like to summon the spirit of Hendrix, even though their music sounds nothing like his, I guess...


Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #158 on: April 09, 2010, 03:25:38 PM »
Kinda like how some guitarists are inspired by and like to summon the spirit of Hendrix, even though their music sounds nothing like his, I guess...

Haha, maybe.  ;D

snyprrr

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Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
« Reply #159 on: April 09, 2010, 08:44:24 PM »
Rob Newman's still hard at work on his book. I do believe that he believes that Liszt actually wrote the music attributed to him,... but I still have my doubts.

...as for Stockhausen...
Rob Newman...Liszt...Stockhausen

Can't you see the connection? 8)