Franz Schmidt(1874-1939)

[Sergeant Rock]

On the basis of Sarge's recommendations and some posts about recordings of the third on Amazon,I bought a copy of the Rajter s/h,some time ago. I think it is marvellous. The Jarvi and Sinaisky simply don't bear comparison...Rajtner makes it sound like a masterpiece;and I think it is,imho! It is also my favourite Schmidt symphony. I have now ordered a reasonable cheap s/h copy of the Fourth from a uk seller. Hopefully,I will eventually have them all! Meanwhile,some enterprising cd label really does need to look at reissuing these recordings.

I'm gratified, and relieved, that I didn't steer you wrong.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I think Jarvi is good in the First. That's the one that left me the most satisfied. Schmidt's lush orchestration benefits from the luxurious sound quality here.  On the other hand,like you Sarge;I think his Second is a bit too hectic. Too ott,and while the Chandos sound IS,arguably,spectacular;it's too boomy,and actually has the effect of smothering Schmidt's orchestration. You miss allot of detail. This is Schmidt not Khatchaturian,or Ilya Murometz,we're dealing with here!! I suspect Rajter has a more measures,restrained approach. His Second will have cleaner,leaner lines,and the less resonant recording will reveal detail that goes unheard in the Jarvi recording. I am glad Chandos recorded these works,but I do wonder sometimes whether recordings like these really are helping Schmidt''s cause? Not that they are bad,or even not good. But if Rajtner's third is anything to go by,imho,Rajter is absolutely spot on in his approach. Also,despite what anyone may have read to the contrary; the orchestra and sounq quality is very good (in the third,anyway). It also works in Schmidt's favour. You get a cleaner,leaner sound. You hear more detail. The Chandos recording team made a mistake here in treating Schmidt like Strauss and going for big,boomy opulent sound. Yes,it works quite well for the First,and the loud bits in the Second are quite good fun in a Telarc "Warning! This could damage your speakers" kind of way;but that's not what Schmidt is all about!

Regarding the Luisi recordings. I remember them being released. I lookes for them on ebay and Amazon yesterday with little luck. Actually,to put it in unmusical terms.....not a sausage! Does anyone why they are SO hard to track down. I was expecting high prices perhaps;but not zilch!

[Templeton]

The Luisi recordings are certainly still available on Amazon UK.  Below are links to the symphony recordings:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonie-Nr-Dur-MDR-08/dp/B0009UBXES/ref=pd_sim_15_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=73E4XZWXPDR0EP60G1SQ

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonie-Nr-Es-Dur-MDR/dp/B0009UBXF2/ref=pd_sim_15_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9M7NHN6P29R4GGWNWJWN

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonie-Nr-Dur-MDR-10/dp/B0009UBXFC/ref=pd_sim_15_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=N65RSBKYJFRD82VYGZFC

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sinfonie-Nr-4-MDR-11/dp/B0009UBXFM/ref=pd_sim_15_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GQ08JXFXFBHZVQ35BMJJ

I have the recording of the Second and it is gorgeous but then I really like the Sinaisky versions, so your taste may not match mine.  I am not as keen on the Järvi recording of the Second, however, having found it overly dense and losing its way, at several points.

I saw the VPO and Semyon Bychkov performing it at the Proms last year and that was truly something special.  Hopefully, one day, they will get around to recording a full cycle.

[cilgwyn]

Wierd! I looked and looked!!! This has never happened before. I tried his name,the cd label,the particular symphony I was looking for. I tried Classical,CD & Vinyl and Everything!! And I consider myself pretty well seasoned when it comes to trawling these sites for all kinds of rarities (and less rare!). What happened? A bug in the browser? Some inner voice pleading with me not to spend any more money on cds?!!
I bet you found them straight away?!!
I'm not too happy with Jarvi's Second. But it's the only recording I have. Not having heard an alternative recording,it's difficult for me to really single out exactly what's wrong with it;except that,after listening to Rajter's third,I suspect he's too fast (as Sarge observes). It certainly  feels too driven. And yes,I don't feel Jarvi has a real grip on the structure of the piece. It reminds me a bit of that Marco Polo Gothic here. Also,the boomy recording obscures allot of detail. It's a very noisy,bombastic reading imho. The sort of thing I might have enjoyed blasting my parents brains out with,unfortunately,as a youngster. Although,I would have only been able to hear Rajter back then!
As to Sinaisky. I think it is a matter of taste to some degree. Maybe I would like his Second better. I had his third. I'm sure his Second is better than Jarvi's. And less boomy sound!! I do like the Chandos sound (so called) usually;but not in this instance. I agree with Sarge that his First is quite good. Of course,I have no comparison;but the orchestration is very lush in places,and I think the Chandos sound is possibly a plus point in this respect?!

[cilgwyn]

I was very disappointed by Sinaisky's First. The opening of the symphony is all wrong. Horrible. Perhaps that's just my problem, though, since the cycle has gotten good reviews and I've found nothing comparably bad with the other symphonies. Still, he doesn't replace old favorites. If you want my recommendation, find a used copy of the Rajter cycle with the RSO Bratislava. Rajter was a pupil and friend of Schmidt. He plays his mentor's music with authority and dedication. The Bratislava may be a second rate band but nowhere else is the music so often played, so deeply embedded in the bones of the musicians.

Luisi's is a great cycle too (would be my second choice) but still very expensive on full-priced single discs. Järvi is generally too swift for me but I love his First (he broadens his tempos here and makes Detroit sound like a central European orchestra). Favorites:

1 Rajter Järvi
2 Rajter Luisi
3 Rajter Luisi
4 Mehta Rajter Welser-Möst


Sarge

I'm reposting this for reference purposes!

[cilgwyn]

I've bought all the remaining Rajter recordings s/h,now! (Hello foodbank!! ) The Jarvi 2 is just a tad too bombastic,for me. Of course,it's the only recording I know;but having heard Rajter's third,I just don't believe that Schmidt is that kind of composer. Jarvi's recording of No 1 is very good;but I could do without the coupling. I bet Rajter's even better,though! And it's not fun having only half a cycle!!

[Templeton]

I will certainly check out the Rajter recordings, having initially been deterred by some of the online reviews.  As you noted, they're not cheap but then you get what you pay for. 

Incidentally Dimitri Mitropoulos recorded the Second with the VPO in 1958.  I downloaded it from Google Play, coupled with Schönberg's 'Verklärte Nacht'.  The sound quality isn't the best and I found it inferior to the Sinaisky and Luisi versions but it is still of interest.

I think that Schmidt's works are hugely underrated, possibly due to his alleged Nazi affinities, even though these have been disputed.  Another one of his contemporaries, whom I recently discovered and like very much is Joseph Marx.  His 'Ein Herbstsymphonie' is a wonderful work and now available but only via download, performed by the American Symphony Orchestra.  Some may find it overly syrupy but I love it.  Definitely worth a look.

[Turner]

There´s a very good mono Schmidt 4th with Rudolf Moralt too.

I´ve been less impressed by Rajter, but I´ll give them another try some time.

[cilgwyn]

Interesting! Thank you for your reply. That's not what I have read! (Well,actually I just did!! Thank you,Turner!) Some of the London based critics,maybe? Most of the posts I've read,and many reviews,are very positive about these performances. And some admirers of this composer regard them as being as 'authentic' as it gets. After all,Rajter studied composition with Franz Schmidt (and Joseph Marx). Not that it's always as much of a plus point as it sounds. For example,Robert Stolz knew Lehar and conducted the premiere of 'The Merry Widow';but his recordings of Lehar's operettas are not up there with the best! Some of this is undoubtedly because Rajtner's orchestra are seen as a second,or,third rate orchestra (merely provincial) and from the Soviet era. Also,recording quality. Yet,as I have said I find their playing of the third symphony superior to the Chandos recording and the Sinaisky in every possible way. I'm not a musician;but it just sounds so right. Rajter and his musicians really seem to get under the skin of this symphony.......and I have no problems with the sound. To my ears it is very good for it's time and the slightly drier (but not dry!) sound quality allows you to really lap up Schmidt's wonderfully lean orchestration in all it's glory. You hear all the detail. Wonderful! As to Rajter's recordings of the other symphonies? Well,we'll see! They haven't arrived in the post yet;but his third was so good I just had to buy them! Ouch! The expense!!!!
That said,I do think that allot of is subjective. Some one will prefer this conductor to that conductor. I'm not going to say anyone should prefer Sinaisky to Jarvi,or Luisi to Jarvi or Sinaisky,or..........whatever?!! If you find an affordable copy I would certainly recommend trying just one of Rajter's recordings. I would suggest the third,because I think it is the trickiest one to perform. Given the right conductor and orchestra I think the outcome is sublime.  I think it's a wonderful symphony. And,so are all the others,for that matter!

Moralt? He conducted the classic recording of Zeller's Der Vogelhandler! A recording of Schmidt by him would be very interesting. I like old recordings,and have no problem with mono. Your ears simply adjust to the sound.
As to Luisi? His recordings have had some very good reviews. Unfortunately,they are expensive,I've spent enough already........and I've got to pay for the roof over my head!! ; I would like to have them,of course. But if I bought one,I'd want the others. Maybe,I can make some money busking,or something?!!

Any other Rajter/Schmidt admirers here? (Where's Sarge when you need him,eh?!! )

[Turner]

I´ve got nothing against Rajter & given his interesting background, more recordings by him would indeed have been nice, if they existed.

For example, there is a relatively rare Brahms cycle (1974) which I don´t know;
I´ve only got the Suchon LP mentioned on this (partial) list, maybe a little more too:

https://www.discogs.com/artist/1052061-%C4%BDudov%C3%ADt-Rajter

+ kept Schmidt Symphonies 1,2,3 & the Opus CD release of Schmidt´s 2nd Piano Concerto & Concertante Variations
https://www.amazon.com/Schmidt-Concertante-Variations-Beethoven-Concerto/dp/B0000060JW

[cilgwyn]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/aug/29/about-franz-schmidt-composer-hitler

I hadn't seen this article. If you scroll down to the numerous posts at the bottom (and even further!) some of the comments about the ability to "hum" excerpts from various works by Schmidt and Elgar are uninintentionally amusing! I'm not sure if I can hum any Franz Schmidt......at least,not yet;but if I l listen enough I'm sure I will be able to (I can hum Havergal Brian! ). That said,I'm really not sure I would base the merits of a particular composer on whether I can hum his music?!!!!!!!
Thank you for the link. I will have a closer look at that list after lunch.
Of course,Cpo have recorded a cd of his own music. I have no plans to buy this at present;but I will have a look at some reviews,out of curiosity.

I might add....one part of me is thinking I should have spent the money on Luisi!!   Although,that would have been more expensive. I do have a thing for pioneers,though;and Rajter was the first integral cycle. And I like his third!

[Templeton]

I have to say that my judgement of Sinaisky is based primarily upon the recording of the Second, which I consider to be superior to Neeme Järvi's.  I also liked Sinaisky's recordings of the other three, although consider Mehta and Welser-Möst's recordings of the Fourth to be superior.

It is a pleasure to discover other aficionados of Franz Schmidt, a rarity in that I have yet to hear any of his compositions that disappoint.  Each one has something different to offer and all are of a very high standard. 

[cilgwyn]

I'll put Sinaisky's Second on my list;but I'm not going to buy anything else just yet. The constant flood  of packages through the letterbox recently has become as embarassing as it is expensive! As I said,Luisi is out for now,as far as I'm concerned. If I buy one ,knowing me,if I like it I'll want all the others;and I've spent enough on Rajter!! To be fair to Jarvi,I admire his enterprise. I would have enjoyed his Second more as a youngster. At my age I need more subtlety! A recordings ability to pulverise loudspeakers and my parents into submission with loud,boomy,recordings is not a priority anymore. And it shouldn't be!

[Sergeant Rock]

There´s a very good mono Schmidt 4th with Rudolf Moralt too.

Moralt? He conducted the classic recording of Zeller's Der Vogelhandler! A recording of Schmidt by him would be very interesting. I like old recordings,and have no problem with mono.

There's also a fabulous Der Ring des Nibelungen conducted by Moralt (with the Vienna Symphony). I own 14 Rings and Moralt's is my favorite of the "historic" Rings. Unfortunately the version I have was amatuerishly put together (cheap paper box, no cast listing, no pauses between scenes and acts...the music just runs together....among other horrors). But the singing and conducting are so good (and so flexible) I can overlook the shoddy production.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I might add....one part of me is thinking I should have spent the money on Luisi!!   Although,that would have been more expensive. I do have a thing for pioneers,though;and Rajter was the first integral cycle. And I like his third!

Luisi can wait. I think you'll be happy with Ratjer...at least I hope you'll be. If not, I'll send you my Luisi discs in penance for steering you wrong 

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

Zeller's Der Vogelhandler is,of course,a Viennese operetta;and one of the very best ones if you like that sort of thing! But the point I'm making is that Moralt's performance has that Viennese/Austrian feel for the genre;which is so difficult to replicate in the studio. So,a Moralt conducted Schmidt symphony would obviously be interesting to hear. Different kind of music,of course....but it sounds intriguing. Opening the booklet that comes with the Zeller operetta I notice another connection. The lead tenor soloist,Julius Patzak,who was Viennese,studied music and conducting with Guido Adler,a friend of Bruckner and Franz Schmidt.
I suppose I could put up a post in a week or two saying how disappointed I am with Ratjer 1,2 & 4! Hello free Luisi cd's!

Ooops! I've told you now!!

[Turner]

As a side remark, Patzak is a soloist on the Amadeo/MHS stereo recording of Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln, conducted by Lippe.
I remember it as a surprisingly moving recording.

Gave the Quintet for Left-Hand Piano & Strings in G Major (1926, written for Paul Wittgenstein, edited for piano two hands by Friedrich Wührer) a listen, in a couple of old LP-versions:



- Vienna Philharmonia Quintet, Decca LP



- Demus, Wiener Konzerthaus Quartett / Da Camera 2LP

It´s a relatively lyrical and bright work, and quite funny how traits of the first movement remind so much of the Tchaikovsky 3rd Piano Concerto.

To me, the Decca version had a much warmer sound, plus many more nuances in the playing.

[Sergeant Rock]

Gave the Quintet for Left-Hand Piano & Strings in G Major (1926, written for Paul Wittgenstein, edited for piano two hands by Friedrich Wührer) a listen, in a couple of old LP-versions:

I have not listened to that in quite some time. I'll get to it this week. I have Fleisher, Ma and company.



Sarge

[ritter]

Cross-posted from the WAYLTN thread:

Erich Leinsdorf conducting Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2 (live in 1983) from this set:

[asin]B00009YW8Y[/asin]

This ultra-lush, late romantic music isn't really my thing, but somehow I have a soft spot for Schmidt (particularly the Schubertian Symphony No. 3 and the glorous, OTT Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln). The recent discussions in the composer's thread (very interesting--hat-tip to Sarge et al.) made me remember I owned this recording, which I actually hadn't listened to (I bought this set for Karl Böhm conducting Schoenberg and Berg). My exposure to the symphonies was through Neeme Järvi on Chandos (and for he time being I don't really need another set--but if the much-lauded Rajter appears at a decent price, I might be tempted  ).

Strange how Erich Leinsdorf was never regarded as a conductor of the first rank, despite the significant posts he held. His rendition of this Symphony No. 3 is quite good (IMHO, and based on what I've listened to so far--the first two movements). In any event, Leinsdorf was a solid musician with an admirable breadth of repertoire. And, heck, I (an impressionable youngster then) saw the man conduct Rheingold and Siegfried at the MET in 1983, and have good memories of those performances. 

Any of you seasoned Schmidtians know this recording? IIRC, it hasn't been mentioned here...

Regards,

EDIT: That second movement, allegretto con variazioni, ROCKS! 

[Mahlerian]

EDIT: That second movement, allegretto con variazioni, ROCKS! 

Agreed.  How many theme and variation sets are an adagio followed by a scherzo where not only the scherzo, but also the trio, are themselves variations??