Winterreise

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, Mike, it seems my memory is still in working order. Thanks!

[knight66]

Perhaps you will be inspired to buy it and keep it!

Mike

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I won't forget. 

[mjwal]

I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition ("on the order of" does not mean similar in character or of equal worth - to avoid heated disputes!). Perhaps Elena Gerhardt's version was like this - does it exist on record? Digression: I had a much older colleague in the language school I worked in in Frankfurt who had been a pupil of Gerhardt's - she was horrified at my suggestion that "Der Lindenbaum" was about a suicidal temptation. Anyway, Fassbaender's  and Lotte Lehmann's versions are priceless, though I should not choose either as a first recommendation for a newcomer.
I have had a dramatic change of attitude since my last post. I listened to the first LP side of Peter Anders's 1948 recording this afternoon, and registered much the same objections - the voice hardening and drying out in the upper register in forte passages, and noticed how unresponsively Weissenborn bangs out the "accompaniment", how you often lose any sense of a connection between the two artists. The first song sounds hurried and unmodulated. Faster songs sound almost breathless and the German articulation suffers at times.On the other hand Anders is very expressive in passages where he can veil his tone in the mid-range; the few passages in the lower voice-range, however, sound almost unsupported and dull. No comparison with the 1945 recording - which is a record of great singing as well as a horrified look into the abyss. But...the winner of the afternoon is a recording that I pulled out on an impulse and had somehow classified under "Good for an old chap, but lacking the chops" (hey! an iambic pentameter); a recording which I do hope is on CD by now, as it is incomparable (please notice the rhetorical use of dilatio here - are you getting impatient?) and revolutionary in its whole character:
Julius Patzak w/Jörg Demus (1964 - work out how old he was).
Yes, he has no "voice" in the sense of vocal brilliance and depth; yes, he has more "voice" in the sense of character-expression than any,and I mean any, of these or other singers of the cycle that I am aware of (Hotter, F-D, Pears, Anders, Hüsch, Prégardien - no I don't know Jarnot e tutti quanti). He is the only singer I know who, instead of inhabiting ("living") a style of expression, represents the character of every phrase without resorting to rhetorical overkill (need I spell his name out?). He is the only one I am aware of who represents the bemused malice of the character as well as his self-pity and anger - that note of malice has a peculiar Austrian tone, and the self-pity something almost dreamily objective (at times the old 3/4 seems to ghostlily gyrate in the background ("glücklich ist, wer vergisst,was nicht mehr zu ändern ist"). When he gives us something like a dramatic full voice it shakes us; you know his almost whispered weary whingeing could be heard at the back of the auditorium. There is a degree of engagement with the implications of the German languge that goes way beyond F-D's rather stagey rhetoric. His Lindenbaum is audacious - there is a dizzying sequence of hesitations and heartstopping inwardnesses, an unpredictable flux which his partner at the piano fully responds to and in fact co-initiates, such is his wizardry. And there you have it: I had never expected to remark on the genius of Jörg Demus, but in this work he is unleashed, brilliant, unsettling, weaving his piano part in such a wise as to meet every slight quickening or delay with his own, creating in fact the sense that there is a second world that the singer knows nothing of - though he sings upon its crests as on an infinitely complex wave.
I haven't checked, but I hope there's a CD out there.

[mc ukrneal]

I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition ("on the order of" does not mean similar in character or of equal worth - to avoid heated disputes!). Perhaps Elena Gerhardt's version was like this - does it exist on record? Digression: I had a much older colleague in the language school I worked in in Frankfurt who had been a pupil of Gerhardt's - she was horrified at my suggestion that "Der Lindenbaum" was about a suicidal temptation. Anyway, Fassbaender's  and Lotte Lehmann's versions are priceless, though I should not choose either as a first recommendation for a newcomer.

I haven't checked, but I hope there's a CD out there.

I agree Fassbender is not a first rec, but makes a wonderful alternative.

I assume on Patzak, you mean this one (which also has a download option):
[asin]B00000HXX2[/asin]

[knight66]

Thanks mjwal, very interesting. I also am impressed by Fassbaender. Expressionist is a good word, it becomes deranged. She takes it as far as I can imagine it being pushed. She has a very sympathetic and capable pianist, so often a composer can shed new light on another composer's work.

Mike

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition

mjwal, have you heard Christine Schäfer's version? I was YouTubing portions of it, and it fits the "Schoenbergian" mode very well. I also listened to bits of the Fassbaender, but I didn't much like the wobbly sound of her voice. Schäfer has a much more even tone based on what I heard.

Any1 heard the hurdy-gurdy version?

[Harry Powell]

Besides the first Hotter cycle and young DFD, I stick to Gerhard Hüsch and Christa Ludwig. With Hüsch you probably get something very similar to what Schubert had in mind when composing. A Romantic, matter-of-fact yet deeply felt rendition. Very different from Hotter's tragic drama.

Now here Hilde, we part company. I am as allergic to Bostridge as I am to Peter Pears. He certainly highlights verbal acuity, but he is inclined to break up the musical lines into sub phrases and he squeezes the tone like toothpaste. The actual sound of the voice is usually, though not always, dry. I think this recording was made a few years ago, since which his mannerisms have become even more pronounced.

I think this comment truly summarizes my opinion on current Lieder singing. I'm repelled by people like Pregardien who can't sing "on the breath" and consequently use falsetto and crooning as their standard delivery. As for baritones I don' care at all for Goernes and Gerhahers: they're the umpteenth crop of Dieskau imitators. Now you get even the smallest nuance in the words, but they are spoken and not sung as true legato is missing.

However I'd like to put Pears aside. He was a very refined singer; Bostridge and the like are simply twee.   

I'll look for the Patzak set. In spite of his vocal weaknesses I think he would be perfect for the cycle.

Anders was a disappointment also for me.

[mjwal]

Interesting point of view, Harry. The Hüsch is very well and movingly sung but for my taste lacking in the shock factor I feel this cycle inherently possesses - not an affair for "pure singing" IMO. And I do not find the pianist very inspiring. Ludwig rather bores me, I'm afraid. Pears was refined, almost at times too "refayned", but able to suggest profoundest melancholy in a way that "twee" (good word) Bostridge will never manage (just compare their versions of Britten's Serenade!), so that despite some inadequacy in idiomatic pronunciation his version of Winterreise, with and especially because of Britten's accompaniment, is dear to me. I did, however, find the Goerne/Brendel live quite involving, but having said that, I only listened to it once.
My favourites (a very subjective list)
1. Patzak
2. Anders
3. Hotter 1
4. Fassbaender
5. Pears
I can't comment on the young F-D - I have the LPs but haven't listened in ages - I remember vocal beauty and stagily didactic impersonation at times, where what is needed is presentation of the varying climates of character and mood within an essentially distanced frame (in the sense of ostranenie).  Listening now to Prégardien again I can see what you mean, though that bothers me less than his inability to truly characterise without a sort of comfortably psycho-melodramatic emphasis, it's a bit "awk, big dipper; bop, summer rain; Bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong." No, I retract my approval. I like the forte-piano, though.

[Guido]

Besides the first Hotter cycle and young DFD, I stick to Gerhard Hüsch and Christa Ludwig. With Hüsch you probably get something very similar to what Schubert had in mind when composing. A Romantic, matter-of-fact yet deeply felt rendition. Very different from Hotter's tragic drama.

I think this comment truly summarizes my opinion on current Lieder singing. I'm repelled by people like Pregardien who can't sing "on the breath" and consequently use falsetto and crooning as their standard delivery. As for baritones I don' care at all for Goernes and Gerhahers: they're the umpteenth crop of Dieskau imitators. Now you get even the smallest nuance in the words, but they are spoken and not sung as true legato is missing.

However I'd like to put Pears aside. He was a very refined singer; Bostridge and the like are simply twee.   

I'll look for the Patzak set. In spite of his vocal weaknesses I think he would be perfect for the cycle.

Anders was a disappointment also for me.

The problem with Bostridge is that he NEVER uses chest voice. Everything is sung in the head voice, which creates a superficially pretty sound, but doesn't travel at all well in the concert hall and nor is it satisfying. He is famously and proudly untrained.

I very much like Gerhaher and Andreas Schmidt. Are you a fan of DFD Harry? I thought all post war baritones were not to your taste.

[Sergeant Rock]

Any1 heard the hurdy-gurdy version?

I own it. I find it works best for me in small doses, a few songs at a time.


Sarge

[knight66]

Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike

[Brahmsian]

I'm very fond of this recording, with Canadian baritone Russell Braun and his wife Carolyn Maule at the piano:

[asin]B000BHHVPY[/asin]

[Guido]

Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike

Interesting! When is early with Gerhaher? I'm not sure whether I have the early or late recording. He was rather wonderful as Wolfram at ROH I thought - certainly not stentorian, but definitely audible at all times.

[mjwal]

I forgot to say, Velimir, that I have not heard C.Schäfer's version. I haven't really liked what I have heard of her singing, mainly because of a personal indifference to the sound she makes, but I will try again - these things often change in time (I can almost listen to Prey with pleasure nowadays...though not, perhaps, in Winterreise...).
I have two very important recordings waiting to be heard:the first Souzay, which I  have somehow almost shamefully missed, though I usually love his singing; and Schreier w/Richter. A first sampling of Souzay suggests I will only really enjoy the dreamy songs like "Frühlingstraum".

[Mandryka]

He's sung and danced it!  At the same time.

http://www.simonkeenlyside.info/Articles/Perform/Recital/20041019+WinterreiseMelbo.html

No recordings, AFAIK.

I saw him with his wife at the Barbican sing it, and you know what I enjoyed the dancing even more than the singing. There was a marvellous moment in Die Krähe . .  . You can imagine.

[knight66]

Interesting! When is early with Gerhaher? I'm not sure whether I have the early or late recording. He was rather wonderful as Wolfram at ROH I thought - certainly not stentorian, but definitely audible at all times.

Of course, I was being facile about his Wagner; he must have put his back into it.

His early recordings are all found on Arte Nova. I have reviewed a couple of them in the vocal recital thread. His three Schubert 'cycle' discs were recorded 2001/3. More recently he was taken up by one of the major companies.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike

Mike, I'm really missing an applauding emoticon! The Songs of the Wayfarer from that concert you mentioned are on youtube. Some weeks ago I got really hooked on this clycle and compared several recordings. Gerhaher seemed to me a pale reflection - sorry if this isn't a common idiom in English - of Dieskau but the 62-year-old Schlusnus simply destroyed him (I promise I'll try to listen to his earlier recordings)

[Harry Powell]

The problem with Bostridge is that he NEVER uses chest voice. Everything is sung in the head voice, which creates a superficially pretty sound, but doesn't travel at all well in the concert hall and nor is it satisfying. He is famously and proudly untrained.

I very much like Gerhaher and Andreas Schmidt. Are you a fan of DFD Harry? I thought all post war baritones were not to your taste.

Ciao Guido

You are right. In Bostridge one listens to a new singing school which ignores the essential matters about producing a "classical" voice: good support, union between registers and a real top.

Of course I have a big admiration for DFD the liederist: I also appreciate many of his opera contributions (specially in his primes). The problem lies in his excessive influence on younger singers, which tend to follow him even in his defects (he had an open top and verged on falsetto when singing mezzavoce) and his intellectual approach to music. I really loved Mike's calling him "hectoring" (new word for me!). Sometimes you listen to him and you get the impression of a terribly intelligent fellow who is giving a lecture. I think it's really a pity that after DFD few people have tried to approach Lieder in the unassuming, "plain-spoken" way of Schlusnus, Hüsch, Patzak, Lehmann, etc.

Schmidt was the best gifted of the "Dieskau children". One listens to his recording of Schoeck's unknown masterpiece "Elegy" and inmediately recognizes a singer of worth. I think he destroyed his voice by imitating his Maestro's timbre (one of the worst mistakes a singer can make).

I also wanted to point out that my main objections to current Lieder singing is directed to men. Things are rather better among women.

[knight66]

Regarding DFD, I heard a critic on radio suggest that although he had many of his discs, they rarely came off the shelf. His reaction was that he admired DFD, but did not love his performances. With a few exceptions, I have the same reaction.

Mike