John Cage (1912-92)

[chadfeldheimer]

First, one should not conflate Cage with Feldman and their respective motivations concerning the composition of their music.  Second, I doubt Feldman would care if you stayed or left.  But the people who stayed would have had the experience Feldman intended.  Feldman definitely had a purpose with writing long works.

Ok. Would be interesting if both Cage and Feldman expressed their opinion about that.

In this instance I don't consider this an example of "the best case"; I think Cage and his work are being exploited.

I'm no fan of the Halberstadt project either, it really is a bit too sensational, longing for superlatives for my taste. But I don't see it so critical. At least people try to promote culture, even if not in the best way imaginable.

[chadfeldheimer]

Really, that's interesting. I suppose in some general sense Asian ideas were part of the hippy thing - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's TM, but apart from Cage, I didn't know that any composers took Buddhism seriously. Who were you thinking of.

Besides the already mentioned Nono and Xenakis I'm thinking of Grisey, Stockhausen (60s onwards), Grisey, Dumitrescu, Feldman, most of the minimalists, Harrison, Partch. I thing the hippy movements also had a large influence on "serious" classical composers of the time.

Re your comments about Feldman's 2nd quartet, I remember talking to someone who was part of the scene in New York which included  La Monte Young, he said that leaving early from performances of the well tuned piano was so frowned on that no one did it, anyone who went was so hard core they stayed for the duration.

Ok - I don't know how long a performance of the well tuned piano is, but I for my part am too impatient to be able to concentrate on music for more than say 4 hours.

[Keep Going]

Re your comments about Feldman's 2nd quartet, I remember talking to someone who was part of the scene in New York which included  La Monte Young, he said that leaving early from performances of the well tuned piano was so frowned on that no one did it, anyone who went was so hard core they stayed for the duration.

Somewhat related to this, audience members are allowed to enter and leave whenever they want throughout Glass' Einstein on the Beach, which lasts circa 5 hours w/o any intermissions.

[Mandryka]

  Feldman definitely had a purpose with writing long works.

I think looking at this issue will go right to the heart of something really essential to modernism. It's not just Feldman who wrote inhumanly long pieces, they were all at it: Riley, Lamonte Young, Dufourt, Finnissy, Cardew,

[Mandryka]

Besides the already mentioned Nono and Xenakis I'm thinking of Grisey, Stockhausen (60s onwards), Grisey, Dumitrescu, Feldman, most of the minimalists, Harrison, Partch. I thing the hippy movements also had a large influence on "serious" classical composers of the time. Ok - I don't know how long a performance of the well tuned piano is, but I for my part am too impatient to be able to concentrate on music for more than say 4 hours.

Oh yes, I can imagine those composers were interested in Buddhism, though I've never checked it out, there was a general interest in meditation of course which may have caught them, transcendental meditation. But that's not really Buddhism.

The bit I put in bold is, I imagine, true for most if not nearly all of us, especially for music without joins. That's why I call this type of long durational music "inhuman"

[Mandryka]

Somewhat related to this, audience members are allowed to enter and leave whenever they want throughout Glass' Einstein on the Beach, which lasts circa 5 hours w/o any intermissions.

That sounds as inappropriate as hanging Rothko's Seagram Murals in a posh restaurant in New York.

[San Antone]

I think looking at this issue will go right to the heart of something really essential to modernism. It's not just Feldman who wrote inhumanly long pieces, they were all at it: Riley, Lamonte Young, Dufourt, Finnissy, Cardew,

I don't think Feldman or Cage wrote "inhumanly long pieces" (which is my problem with the 639 year performance).  I can't speak about the other composers you name, but for both Cage and Feldman their music was written to be performed by humans and for humans to listen to it.  Breaking of boundaries concerning duration was definitely a concern for Feldman (not sure about Cage) but it was an idea that by doing so, i.e. inviting an audience to listen for several hours or more, there would be a qualitative change in their perception of the music*, the space and their sense of time.  ("Breaking of boundaries" was an quality Feldman considered a hallmark of experimental art.)

* Proof for this can be found in the first person accounts from audience members about their reaction to experiencing these long works.

[chadfeldheimer]

Oh yes, I can imagine those composers were interested in Buddhism, though I've never checked it out, there was a general interest in meditation of course which may have caught them, transcendental meditation. But that's not really Buddhism.

But the transcendental meditation is a buddhist practice. It is true that not all mentioned composer convertet to buddhismin and in some cases the influence of Buddhism is rather indirect. But I would say without the existence of buddhism the music of those composer and the development of 20th century classical music in general would be different.

[Mandryka]

But the transcendental meditation is a buddhist practice.

Do you (or does anyone else) know this for sure? The only Buddhist practices I've come across involve

1. Mindfulness
2. Cultivation of certain emotional states
3. Identification with a Bodhisattva.

[Mandryka]

I don't think Feldman or Cage wrote "inhumanly long pieces" (which is my problem with the 639 year performance).  I can't speak about the other composers you name, but for both Cage and Feldman their music was written to be performed by humans and for humans to listen to it.  Breaking of boundaries concerning duration was definitely a concern for Feldman (not sure about Cage) but it was an idea that by doing so, i.e. inviting an audience to listen for several hours or more, there would be a qualitative change in their perception of the music*, the space and their sense of time.  ("Breaking of boundaries" was an quality Feldman considered a hallmark of experimental art.)

* Proof for this can be found in the first person accounts from audience members about their reaction to experiencing these long works.

These first person accounts, I'd be interested to read them.

Is Feldman saying this?

I am a guru with magic powers. I have made some music which, if you stay for the duration, will transform your into something better, truer, than you were before..You will be enlightened. Tickets $50 each.

[San Antone]

These first person accounts, I'd be interested to read them.

You can find one by scrolling up and reading Alex Ross's description.

[chadfeldheimer]

Do you (or does anyone else) know this for sure? The only Buddhist practices I've come across involve

1. Mindfulness
2. Cultivation of certain emotional states
3. Identification with a Bodhisattva.

I'm no expert. At least it is practiced in local buddhist centers and it surely has it's origins in buddhist meditations.

[chadfeldheimer]

The bit I put in bold is, I imagine, true for most if not nearly all of us, especially for music without joins. That's why I call this type of long durational music "inhuman"

After 10000 hours of practicising transcendental meditation maybe I'm up to the task.

[milk]

Cage was opposed to the Europeans who set up his work ASLSP (As Slow as Possible) in which the work will take 639 years to complete.  He wrote the work for piano and wanted the work to be structured around the natural decay of the tones.  When he found out about the organ version in which they fitted weights to the organ so that each tone could last indefinitely he expressed his opposition.  The work is still going on.  But Cage was a humanist and wanted his music to express the human spirit, not abstract ideas about time.

He also put together a performance of the Satie work Vexations, a work Satie wrote without bar lines which consists of a short theme in the bass whose four presentations are heard alternately unaccompanied and played with chords above.  Satie instructed that the theme be played 840 times.  Cage got pianist volunteers to play for periods of time and they performed all 840.  I am not sure how long it took, but probably over 24 hours.

Feldman used long works to stretch the consciousness of the audience.  After we listen for 4 or 6 hours our sense of perception goes through changes.  People who stayed to listen to long periods of the Vexations performance also described a shift in how they perceived the work and even the space around them.

Feldman was quoted as saying that Cage gave him and other young composers "permission" to follow their muse.  But Cage always thought of himself as a composer (later also a visual artist) but resisted the idea of himself as a philosopher.   While he admired Duchamp and took inspiration from him, Cage was not out to "make a point" necessarily, but to write musical compositions that might make people think, yes, but primarily the music was to be enjoyed for what it was.

Feldman was a student of Cage and for about five years they were very much involved.  But Feldman did not use Cage's techniques.  There is a famous story of one of their first meetings and Feldman played Cage one of his compositions.  Cage asked him "how did you write that" and Feldman responded "I don't know", which delighted Cage.  Feldman was a very intuitive composer.  He wrote music according to what he felt and internally heard.  Many of his works revolve around a few pitches or chords but the small variations and when a change is added it was all dictated by his internal muse.

Which is very different from Cage's wish to remove himself from the composing and turn it over to chance operations.

Cage's late number pieces are some of his best music, IMO.  Do listen to them.

Wonderful writing here. You provide a lot of thoughts to ponder. I have to find a way into some later work. I have a recording of the etudes. It's not easy so far.

[milk]

Do you (or does anyone else) know this for sure? The only Buddhist practices I've come across involve

1. Mindfulness
2. Cultivation of certain emotional states
3. Identification with a Bodhisattva.

Yes. Transcendental meditation is hinduism. Mindfulness seems more to the point. Living in Japan at the moment, I'm always amazed at how scantily regarded Zen is here. People know very little about it. Of course, young Japanese people generally have no idea what it is, let alone the influence on every post-war American art form. I did a Zen retreat in Japan a few years back: it was for non-Japanese funnily enough! By the way, I visited Thich Nhat Hanh's monastery last summer in Hue, Vietnam. There it's taken more seriously. Popular (pure land) Japanese Buddhism is much more cult-like and "weird" these days, it seems to me. All these ideas coming through Cage, Ginsberg, Snyder, Kerouac, maybe painters like Barnett Newman, are called Eastern, but seem very mediated through Western tastes (this is off the point, but Leonard Cohen said living in a Buddhist monastery was living totally exposed. He had a Japanese teacher. A famous one - later tarnished by many allegations of sexual impropriety. It seems to me that the last thing Japanese society encourages is exposure to the mindful moment). But I would contrast this to La Monte Young and his ilk. Indian gurus and their philosophy are more overt and headstrong I think. Well, Indian music is that way too. 
 

[Mandryka]

You can find one by scrolling up and reading Alex Ross's description.

Cheers

I don't think Feldman or Cage wrote "inhumanly long pieces"

It is certainly possible for someone to be at a performance of a long duration piece of music from start to end. What sort of listening is humanly possible? Can someone really be expected to remember ideas which were presented maybe many hours before and see how they have been developed? That's to say, can you listen intellectually? I'm sceptical that you can.

There's a form of listening which has started to interest me which is entirely tied to the present, you listen and enjoy what's happening in the now of the music without trying to recall its relation to the past or project its future. I know someone who thinks that this is the best way to listen to serial music where there is little or no memorable melody and the compositional techniques are really not perceivable easily with the ear. Maybe this is how we're supposed to experience long duration music - a narrative free amorphous and directionless juxtaposition of harmonies and rhythms.


And that makes the question of the point of this music even more urgent.

[Mandryka]

Yes. Transcendental meditation is hinduism.

That's what I had always thought.

[San Antone]

It is certainly possible for someone to be at a performance of a long duration piece of music from start to end. What sort of listening is humanly possible? Can someone really be expected to remember ideas which were presented maybe many hours before and see how they have been developed? That's to say, can you listen intellectually? I'm sceptical that you can.

There's a form of listening which has started to interest me which is entirely tied to the present, you listen and enjoy what's happening in the now of the music without trying to recall its relation to the past or project its future. I know someone who thinks that this is the best way to listen to serial music where there is little or no memorable melody and the compositional techniques are really not perceivable easily with the ear. Maybe this is how we're supposed to experience long duration music - a narrative free amorphous and directionless juxtaposition of harmonies and rhythms.


And that makes the question of the point of this music even more urgent.

I think you've answered your own question.

[Mandryka]

It all makes me think of a Sutra by the Buddha called "A Better Way to Live Alone"

Do not pursue the past.
Do not lose yourself in the future.
The past no longer is.
The future has not yet come.
Looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now, the practitioner dwells in stability and freedom.
We must be diligent today.
To wait till tomorrow is too late.
Death comes unexpectedly.
How can we bargain with it?
The sage calls a person who dwells in mindfulness night and day, 'the one who knows the better way to live alone.

[San Antone]

Related to the discussion about audience reactions to long works, here is Christian Wolff talking about his experience of the performance of Satie's Vexation:

As the first cycle of pianists went round the playing was quite diverse, a variety – quite extreme, from the most sober and cautious to the willful and effusive – of personalities was revealed. Musically the effect seemed disturbing. But after another round the more expansive players began to subside, the more restrained to relax, and by the third round or so the personalities and playing techniques of the pianists had been almost completely subsumed by the music. The music simply took over. At first a kind of passive object, it became the guiding force. . . . As the night wore on we got weary, or rather just sleepy, and the beautiful state of suspension of self now became risky. Alertness had to be redoubled not to miss repetitions or notes. An element of comedy – now that solidarity and easiness were evidently there – joined us.

It should be clear that both the performers and audience were effected by the long period of time involved in performing this work and how their perceptions and performances changed throughout the night and the length of time it took to complete the 840 repetitions.