John Cage (1912-92)

[Ken B]

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight.
Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."

                                                                                  -- John Cage

Wins elections.

[Mandryka]

What do you all think of Claudio Crismani's recording of Etudes Australes?

[torut]

What do you all think of Claudio Crismani's recording of Etudes Australes?

I don't have the Crismani's recording, but noticed that it is just 2-CD set. Since no tempi are specified in the score, it is natural that the length of each performance is different, but the latest recording by Libener is 4-CD set! Do you feel that Crismani's playing is hasty?
I checked the lengths of 4 recordings. Liebner's tempi are very constant.

Title	Sultan (1978-82)	Crismani (1994-96)	Schleiermacher (2001)	Liebner (2011)
Etude #1	3'54	4'06	4'19	8'19
Etude #2	4'33	4'29	5'43	8'01
Etude #3	4'02	1'46	5'53	8'06
Etude #4	4'12	4'37	3'32	7'58
Etude #5	4'26	5'07	4'28	8'16
Etude #6	4'08	4'52	5'15	8'19
Etude #7	5'05	2'17	7'44	8'19
Etude #8	3'57	4'17	5'39	8'11
Etude #9	5'07	4'17	5'28	8'17
Etude #10	4'35	2'31	4'37	8'12
Etude #11	4'36	2'37	4'19	7'50
Etude #12	3'53	3'29	4'06	8'19
Etude #13	4'14	1'58	5'26	7'50
Etude #14	5'20	3'09	6'39	8'19
Etude #15	4'28	3'16	6'21	8'18
Etude #16	5'36	5'54	8'14	7'51
Etude #17	5'05	3'20	5'50	8'15
Etude #18	5'18	2'38	6'37	8'06
Etude #19	4'56	2'28	6'58	8'04
Etude #20	5'03	4'00	6'17	8'12
Etude #21	5'24	1'36	7'41	8'08
Etude #22	6'51	4'01	7'17	8'08
Etude #23	6'08	2'41	8'32	8'22
Etude #24	6'26	2'08	6'52	7'57
Etude #25	6'28	3'42	6'26	8'17
Etude #26	6'46	3'24	6'05	8'21
Etude #27	5'32	1'09	5'56	8'15
Etude #28	6'50	2'29	7'10	8'14
Etude #29	7'11	4'12	8'26	8'07
Etude #30	7'07	5'00	7'57	7'55
Etude #31	7'21	4'25	6'55	7'48
Etude #32	4'47	5'56	5'34	8'08
total	169'19	112'03	204'00	260'42

[Ken B]

HIP Cage!

Recorded silence from 1950?

[torut]

Melodies & Harmonies
[asin]B003GC57UC[/asin]

I have been listening to this album many times. Very lovely and peaceful. The Six Melodies were written for violin and unspecified keyboard instrument. Here a Fender Rhodes is used for the keyboard part. It creates calming atmosphere. I don't know if there is a recording that uses a piano or other keyboard instrument.

The tracks can be heard at Col Legno's site.

Six Melodies

The Six Melodies go back to the year 1950, a time when John Cage had become interested in oriental philosophy and was trying to find answers to questions of sounds, silence and time: "Time is that which decides about the life and death of each sound and of each silence, animating both alike, and thus being part of what is most intimate about the sound and of what is most intimate about the silence, in this regard not even existing 'as such' but always coming to light anew." The Six Melodies were written for violin and keyboard instrument (leaving it to the performer to choose the type of keyboard instrument), only a short time after the String Quartet in Four Parts; in a letter to Pierre Boulez, Cage himself referred to them as a "postscript to the Quartet" – he even used a nearly identical collection of gamuts. The structure of each piece, and even that of each phrase, is defined by the same rhythmic pattern. The violinist is requested to play without vibrato and with minimum weight on the bow. on this album, the Six Melodies are framed by the larger collection of the Thirteen Harmonies, with both cycles confronting, and contrasted with, each other, yet also establishing a link between Cage's early works and his late oeuvre.

Thirteen Harmonies

The Thirteen Harmonies date back to 1985, more specifically to violinist Roger Zahab's idea of selecting thirteen out of the 44 Harmonies originally written for Cage's Apartment House 1776, and arrange them for violin and keyboards. Cage thought this a great plan and approved the arrangements. He had written Apartment House 1776 in 1976, on the occasion of the two-hundredth anniversary of the American Declaration of Independence. The original number of states that formed the US, i.e. thirteen, inspired Roger Zahab to select thirteen of these Harmonies. Their origin also dates back to the 18th century: each of the Thirteen Harmonies is based on a chorale, a hymn or a congregational song of the East Coast Protestant Church. All of the pieces used and fragmented by Cage for the Harmonies had been written in an environment separated from European musical traditions, by composers who had already been born as Americans and had moreover remained largely unaffected by musical developments in Europe. William Billings, Supply Belcher, Andrew Law and James Lyon were the creators of the original pieces, which could at best be described as relatively simple "utility music" if judged according to European standards. This simplicity and the quite straightforward sound are to some extent maintained by the violin's vibratoless, melancholy, somewhat "rural" playing. The sound repertoire includes fissured single tones, double stops, isolated gestures and flageolets. The notation used for all the pieces is entirely traditional, but Klaus Lang points out a special characteristic in Cage's work: "Especially in the case of the Harmonies, which have been assembled from fragmented sound objects positioned freely in time, no meter develops from the music itself, as is usual with traditional classical music.
When performing the piece, one needs to create this flow in one's mind, and arrange the objects in the flow, on the basis of the score. The result is the paradoxical situation of having to constantly attend to a meter in order to create sound structures which, for the listener, are detached from the meter and simply hover in space."

[Mandryka]

I don't have the Crismani's recording, but noticed that it is just 2-CD set. Since no tempi are specified in the score, it is natural that the length of each performance is different, but the latest recording by Libener is 4-CD set! Do you feel that Crismani's playing is hasty?
I checked the lengths of 4 recordings. Liebner's tempi are very constant.

Title	Sultan (1978-82)	Crismani (1994-96)	Schleiermacher (2001)	Liebner (2011)
Etude #1	3'54	4'06	4'19	8'19
Etude #2	4'33	4'29	5'43	8'01
Etude #3	4'02	1'46	5'53	8'06
Etude #4	4'12	4'37	3'32	7'58
Etude #5	4'26	5'07	4'28	8'16
Etude #6	4'08	4'52	5'15	8'19
Etude #7	5'05	2'17	7'44	8'19
Etude #8	3'57	4'17	5'39	8'11
Etude #9	5'07	4'17	5'28	8'17
Etude #10	4'35	2'31	4'37	8'12
Etude #11	4'36	2'37	4'19	7'50
Etude #12	3'53	3'29	4'06	8'19
Etude #13	4'14	1'58	5'26	7'50
Etude #14	5'20	3'09	6'39	8'19
Etude #15	4'28	3'16	6'21	8'18
Etude #16	5'36	5'54	8'14	7'51
Etude #17	5'05	3'20	5'50	8'15
Etude #18	5'18	2'38	6'37	8'06
Etude #19	4'56	2'28	6'58	8'04
Etude #20	5'03	4'00	6'17	8'12
Etude #21	5'24	1'36	7'41	8'08
Etude #22	6'51	4'01	7'17	8'08
Etude #23	6'08	2'41	8'32	8'22
Etude #24	6'26	2'08	6'52	7'57
Etude #25	6'28	3'42	6'26	8'17
Etude #26	6'46	3'24	6'05	8'21
Etude #27	5'32	1'09	5'56	8'15
Etude #28	6'50	2'29	7'10	8'14
Etude #29	7'11	4'12	8'26	8'07
Etude #30	7'07	5'00	7'57	7'55
Etude #31	7'21	4'25	6'55	7'48
Etude #32	4'47	5'56	5'34	8'08
total	169'19	112'03	204'00	260'42

No, I do not get the impression that he is playing hastily. My impression is that Crismani plays this as flowing music, while Liebner and Sultan play it as music which is being always interrupted. As a result, there is less space, less white space between cells in Crismani's interpretation, I don't know if that's clear. That explains why the duration of each etude is so much shorter.

It is astonishing how different Crismani's phrasing is from Sultan's and Liebner's.

I guess Sultan had a privileged access to Cage's intentions, Crismani makes the music sound very different. It is, after all, music which is very underdetermined by the score if I understand correctly - these etudes remind me of Louis Couperin's unmeasured preludes in that respect. l I like Sultan and Crismani, Sultan for the sense of a duet between two handa and Crismani for the easy listening zen like flow. 

[7/4]

Melodies & Harmonies
[asin]B003GC57UC[/asin]

I have been listening to this album many times. Very lovely and peaceful. The Six Melodies were written for violin and unspecified keyboard instrument. Here a Fender Rhodes is used for the keyboard part. It creates calming atmosphere. I don't know if there is a recording that uses a piano or other keyboard instrument.

The tracks can be heard at Col Legno's site.

Six Melodies
Thirteen Harmonies

AH! I fell in love with that recording on utube and tacked down a copy. The Fender Rhodes is a brilliant choice for this piece.

[torut]

No, I do not get the impression that he is playing hastily. My impression is that Crismani plays this as flowing music, while Liebner and Sultan play it as music which is being always interrupted. As a result, there is less space, less white space between cells in Crismani's interpretation, I don't know if that's clear. That explains why the duration of each etude is so much shorter.

It is astonishing how different Crismani's phrasing is from Sultan's and Liebner's.

I guess Sultan had a privilaged access to Cage's intentions, Crismani makes the music sound very different. It is, after all, music which is very underdetermined by the score if I understand correctly - these etudes remind me of Louis Couperin's unmeasured preludes in that respect. l I like Sultan and Crismani, Sultan for the sense of a duet between two handa and Crismani for the easy listening zen like flow.

Thank you. It is interesting, but Crismani's album is the most difficult to obtain among the 4. I only have Sultan.

I guess it is like the difference between the performances contained in Atlas Eclipticalis with Winter Music on Mode ... ? The 1983 performances, in which two works were played simultaneously, are very sparse, about 80-minute long. The separated performances in 1988 are shorter (Atlas: 30 min, Winter Music: 10 min) and easier to listen to.

[torut]

AH! I fell in love with that recording on utube and tacked down a copy. The Fender Rhodes is a brilliant choice for this piece.

I agree. I heard a short youtube clip of Aki Takahashi's performance using a piano. Although it is also nice, I prefer the Fender Rhodes. I love the sound since I heard it in Miles Davis albums.

[milk]

Just got and listened to Berman's two volumes of prepared piano music. I'm really surprised at how much I like this music. I had a huge prejudice for some reason. I just didn't expect it to be so pleasurable.

[milk]

Melodies & Harmonies
[asin]B003GC57UC[/asin]

I have been listening to this album many times. Very lovely and peaceful. The Six Melodies were written for violin and unspecified keyboard instrument. Here a Fender Rhodes is used for the keyboard part. It creates calming atmosphere. I don't know if there is a recording that uses a piano or other keyboard instrument.

The tracks can be heard at Col Legno's site.

Six Melodies
Thirteen Harmonies

I listened to this on my way to work this morning. When I drifted off into forgetting, I found myself forgetting what I was listening to and then coming back to it thinking it was something baroque. Is it just the style of the violin? I think it's something more.

[torut]

I listened to this on my way to work this morning. When I drifted off into forgetting, I found myself forgetting what I was listening to and then coming back to it thinking it was something baroque. Is it just the style of the violin? I think it's something more.

According to Col Legno site, Cage used old music for this work.

The musical material dates back to the 18th century. It is based on chorales, hymns and congregational songs of the East Coast Protestant Church, all of them written by composers already born as Americans and only indirectly related to European musical traditions. Cage adapted and fragmented these pieces of utility music, and positioned them in time as individual, singular objects.

All music guide

The melodies used are hymn tunes by American composers of the Revolutionary period, such as William Billings, Supply Belcher, Andrew Law, and James Lyon, and Zahab selected 13 in recognition of the 13 original colonies

[EDIT] The above descriptions are about the Thirteen Harmonies (1985), which were taken from 44 Harmonies originally written for Cage's Apartment House 1776. Six Melodies were composed in 1950, shortly after the String Quartet in Four Parts. ("postscript to the Quartet")

[milk]

According to Col Legno site, Cage used old music for this work.
All music guide
[EDIT] The above descriptions are about the Thirteen Harmonies (1985), which were taken from 44 Harmonies originally written for Cage's Apartment House 1776. Six Melodies were composed in 1950, shortly after the String Quartet in Four Parts. ("postscript to the Quartet")

Thanks for the info. This makes more sense now.

[milk]

This is quite a wonderful recording. Never dull.

[torut]

This is quite a wonderful recording. Never dull.

In a Landscape is beautiful. I don't have that disc but the selection of works looks attractive. Cage's early works have a wide diversity, and the melodic works are really lovely, easy to ear, simple, but I can keep listening to them without being bored.
Stephen Drury recorded many works of Cage. I like Piano Works I on Mode a lot. (Late works)

[Mandryka]

Look at that list of timings that Torut made for each of the Etudes Australes. Why does Sabine Liebner take 8 minutes for each Etude? I'm listening on spotify so I don't have the booklet, I wonder if she discuss this in the booklet.

I've been listening to Herbert Henck play Stockhausen's Klavierstucke and that's helped me appreciate what Liebner does with the Etudes Australes much more. All that space makes your attention focus on how sounds and textures last and die away, the movement. I now find Liebner's way with the Etudes stunningly beautiful (and Henck's way with the klavierstucke.)

The cost, in both cases, is that you lose the sense of physicality and spontaneity.

[milk]

Look at that list of timings that Torut made for each of the Etudes Australes. Why does Sabine Liebner take 8 minutes for each Etude? I'm listening on spotify so I don't have the booklet, I wonder if she discuss this in the booklet.

I've been listening to Herbert Henck play Stockhausen's Klavierstucke and that's helped me appreciate what Liebner does with the Etudes Australes much more. All that space makes your attention focus on how sounds and textures last and die away, the movement. I now find Liebner's way with the Etudes stunningly beautiful (and Henck's way with the klavierstucke.)

The cost, in both cases, is that you lose the sense of physicality and spontaneity.

Well, I'm purchasing this on your recommendation here. I've been going with the Americans for the last few months, from Feldman to Riley and Young and now to Cage. Honestly, I tried Xenakis and Ligeti and didn't get hooked. But I'm sure I will enjoy Ligeti in the future. I'll get back to it. My subjective opinion at the moment is that I like the sense of fun and lack of angst in the American bunch. It's like the feeling I got reading Kerouac when I was younger. The music is challenging without being heavy. Well, Feldman transcends all this for me though. He's just sublime. But generally I feel with Cage an excitement about music with a seeming lack of baggage. I love all this prepared piano stuff (that goes for Riley and Young as well). Has anyone done anything with the idea more recently?     

[Mandryka]

Sabine Liebner's way of playing these Etudes is certainly not fun, as I said my own appreciation of her has come from listening to how another performer - Herbert Henck - plays another piece of music - the first 11 Klavierstucke. Both are polished, colourful, earnest and both seem to make the music interesting through motion, change, rather than melody or rhythm. You listen by just noticing and enjoying that this tone, this texture, has now given way to another, that it endured and then ceased to be.

The classic recording of the piano etudes is, probably, Grete Sultan. What I get from listening to her is precisely what Cage said these etudes where about - a duet for two hands. I very much like Sultan's recording.

But really, there's so much openness in the music that you need to hear every serious interpretation.

[milk]

Sabine Liebner's way of playing these Etudes is certainly not fun, as I said my own appreciation of her has come from listening to how another performer - Herbert Henck - plays another piece of music - the first 11 Klavierstucke. Both are polished, colourful, earnest and both seem to make the music interesting through motion, change, rather than melody or rhythm. You listen by just noticing and enjoying that this tone, this texture, has now given way to another, that it endured and then ceased to be.

The classic recording of the piano etudes is, probably, Grete Sultan. What I get from listening to her is precisely what Cage said these etudes where about - a duet for two hands. I very much like Sultan's recording.

But really, there's so much openness in the music that you need to hear every serious interpretation.

Well, I'll start with Liebner and see what happens next. The download was kind of cheap.

[torut]

I love all this prepared piano stuff (that goes for Riley and Young as well). Has anyone done anything with the idea more recently?     

I asked the same question in the 1950-2000 thread, and some guy kindly posted this. I enjoyed all of them. Christian Wolff's work is nice.

http://www.amazon.com/The-extended-piano-alcides-lanza/dp/B0018T93P0/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1398508386&sr=8-13&keywords=richard+bunger

http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Bunger-Delores-Stevens-Prepared/dp/B00396Z1OM/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1398508386&sr=8-15&keywords=richard+bunger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14jPvnWhdNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_OhcAAz0SE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjWYts63HW4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-QV2jiSUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EODoJckh5vY

There's even pop prepared piano.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgph8aPmRJs

Of course, that's the one that NPR picks up....

For Andrea Newmann, this video may be better.

andrea neumann - inside piano
acoustic fields festival, sound art exhibition ESC im Labor, graz 11.june - 2.july 2010
http://vimeo.com/14577016

This is for two partially prepared pianos. Whittington was influenced by Cage.

Stephen Whittington - Legend (1988) for two partially prepared pianos

https://www.youtube.com/v/tpsVjBdPUbM