John Cage (1912-92)

[Karl Henning]

All of us wonder that is so important to James to "occupy" this thread with his urge to smear Cage.

Someone needs a life.


Nate, don't bother reading James's opinions about music -- you'll end up being disappointed if you do. It is surface color and nothing more.

[milk]

I listened to short audio samples of Chrismani's recording. It is very dynamic, and there is a sense of flow, not pointillistic like the other performance. For some reason I couldn't find it before, but the album is available on digital format. I'll check it out.

Wow! The samples totally different from Liebner. I can't believe it's the same music. I think I'm going to try that one at some point.

[milk]

My enjoyment of Cage's chance operation music is very superficial. I don't feel any deep sense of wonder, I just enjoy the feeling of sound. It's like enjoying the texture, the feel of surface, the color, the feel of mass, etc. of a stone. In that sense I prefer Freeman Etudes to Etudes Australes or Atlas Eclipticalis, because the violin has more variations in timbre (smooth or rough, squeaking, various attack sounds at a fast passage, etc.) and a solo reveals the raw sounds of the instrument more directly than orchestra. I don't know why it is so attractive, but once I start listening to one of Freeman Etudes, I usually keep listening until the end of at least one disc. If I repeat only one etude again and again, eventually I will memorize it and be tired of it. So, it is nice to have many etudes, even if each one does not have distinguishable characteristics.

I think Cage had many contradictions. If we take what he said literally, yes, ultimately randomly generated sounds by computer should work. But I feel that there is Cage's personality even in the chance operation works, because it was Cage who created the particular systems that generate the scores. There must be many limitations in order to make it playable, and there should have been Cage's preferences in deciding how to convert star charts or stains on paper to tones, dynamics, lengths of notes, etc. "a child could do that" is a valid criticism, if that is true, but the Etudes required incredibly complicated, elaborate work to realize, if I understand correctly. I wonder if anyone can create a system from scratch or "random" music with a minimal effort which is not boring and sounds even remotely comparable to Freeman Etudes, for example. (Actually, I feel similarity in Ferneyhough's works, which are of course not random music ...)

Which Freeman do you recommend?

[milk]

https://www.youtube.com/v/03ze845nRYc
Excerpt from Freeman Etudes, Performed at the John Cage Centennial Festival Washington DC by Irvine Arditti
This is amazing.

Oh. This is one. I see. This or Fusi.

[milk]

However, Cage expected impersonality in performances, I believe. Each performance should be different, but Cage didn't want personal taste or value judgement in that, and he suggested to use chance operation as one of the methods of decision making by performers for the works of indeterminacy. What I thought was that Sabine might have made that tempo decision in order to make the music sound impersonal and unpredictable as much as possible.
I am not saying that the existence of personality in a performance is good or bad. I think it is inevitable, and it may be that the conflict (or contradiction) between the intended impersonality and performers' personality makes his music interesting.
I am still not sure what Cage's real intention was, and that is the reason I like to read about him and hear opinions of you, milk or other members.

My opinion is not very informed. However, I like how I was kind of offended when I first read about this view of Cage. I was even prejudiced against him. I like how there is a tension caused here. Maybe it's that I feel we always need a counter to what's dominant. It's still radical to most people maybe. My friend's wife is a pianist specializing in "contemporary" music here in Kansai, Japan and it's hard for her to get gigs outside of museums. You can here Brahms every night but I never see contemporary names on schedules. I said, "do Cage in a Zen temple!" Anyway, I think it's still challenging to say "remove the great interpreter!"..."open to the moment"! 

[milk]

Liebner's hard core - it's only for people who prepared to put in the major effort to relax and repose the mind enough to appreciate her. An etude for the listener.

In Liebner's there isn't much dynamic variation - just what comes naturally from playing several notes at the same time. Claudio Chrismani is very violent dynamically. And Chrismani imposes recognisable rhythms. As I said he even picks out tunes (quelle horreur!) Of couse in Liebner there are no recognisable rhythms and certainly nothing you can hum.  Again I think the result in Chrismani's is to underline events and the result is something which think James would see as more disciplined and meaningful. But I'm sure that this is contrary to Cage's intentions, both as an exercise for the performer and for the listener. Nevertheless , I think that what Chrismani does is quite attractive, at least, it is to anyone who can enjoy atonal piano music.

This is music for transforming people. Meditation music, and like Buddhist meditation, it's not easy.

I've done one Zen retreat and also a one-day thing. It is hard. The retreat was 3 days and that was awfully tough for me. I think I might do better to start with Chrismani and then go back to Liebner.

[milk]

So what do you think?

Pretty bereft of anything musical (or human for that matter) isn't it.
And quite obviously created from the outside, instead of the other way around.

It's results certainly aren't deeply civilized or sophisticated.

It may take me a while to get to it. But there is not much stock in my opinion as I am not deeply civilized or sophisticated either. Although I don't spit in the street...(just a joke; hope you don't mind).

[kishnevi]

https://www.youtube.com/v/03ze845nRYc
Excerpt from Freeman Etudes, Performed at the John Cage Centennial Festival Washington DC by Irvine Arditti
This is amazing.

Hmmm.  Interesting.
I did notice that despite the aleatoric base a melodic and harmonic structure  was manifest.  Question is, was it really there, or was my mind imposing structure on the experience.   Something only deeply sophisticated music can do. 
Of course, Bach created his fugues from the outside as it were.

[torut]

Which Freeman do you recommend?

I only have Arditti's recordings on Mode. Although I am satisfied with the album (I love the sound of Arditti's violin), I am interested in listening to other interpretations. I have not heard Fusi or Zukofsky, the violinist who initially worked with Cage on Freeman Etude but gave up, recorded only an incomplete set (I-VIII). I am also thinking to check Scondanibbio's Wergo album Dream that contains contrabass transcription of Freeman Etude No. 1-5.

[Mandryka]

Wow! The samples totally different from Liebner. I can't believe it's the same music.

Exactly. What would be really interesting is if someone who can score could explain what he's doing and how it can sound so different from Liebner's. Leibner's definitely the most hard core. Griet Sultan is also very fine.

I have a feeling that Liebner's is the closest to what Cage would have approved of.

[torut]

I've done one Zen retreat and also a one-day thing. It is hard. The retreat was 3 days and that was awfully tough for me. I think I might do better to start with Chrismani and then go back to Liebner.

It is interesting. I have never done it. You must be able to understand Cage's music very well.

I listened to Crismani's Etudes today and was deeply moved. The quiet parts are very lyrical, sounding almost like romantic or impressionistic at times. Each note is played with the great sensibility. It is very different from Liebner's sober playing or Sultan's kind of straightforward performance, each of which has its own beauty.

Exactly. What would be really interesting is if someone who can score could explain what he's doing and how it can sound so different from Liebner's. Leibner's definitely the most hard core. Griet Sultan is also very fine.

I have a feeling that Liebner's is the closest to what Cage would have approved of.

I just compared the Etude Book I No. 8 of which wikipedia has the score of the beginning. Liebner plays the black notes shortly with strong attacks, while Crismani plays with very soft touch using the damper pedal a lot, the notes are played legato. It seems Liebner's is more accurate, but I don't know if Crismani's way is allowed by the instruction of the score.

[Mandryka]

The whole score is downloadable here, but when I looked at it I couldn't see a preface or instructions.

http://modisti.com/news/?p=10091

[EigenUser]

Cage fight!

[...]He maintained a child-like fascination with color[...]

Nothing wrong with that. Messiaen, too, was fascinated with color. Probably more so than Cage.

I don't like Cage's music, but I like his ideas (particularly on silence). Would someone have come up with it later had he not done so? Of course -- but this can be said about most things/inventions.

However, the music of his close friend Morton Feldman is among my favorite. Not quite up there with my top 5 (currently Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Messiaen, Haydn), but not too far off, either. For me, Feldman took some of Cage's ideas and made some of the most unique music with it. Depending on how you feel at the time, the same Feldman piece can come off as serene and peaceful or intense and even slightly foreboding. It's like those holograms that change pictures depending on the angle that your eyes approach.

[EigenUser]

Nothing wrong with that. Messiaen, too, was fascinated with color. I don't like Cage ..

LOL at quote censorship . I would mind if I were discussing a composer I like, but in this case I laughed.

It's a good thing I don't like Cage, too, because if I did I could see my mom screaming "NATHAN!!! Get those rusted bolts and rubber bands out of our piano!"

In elementary school music, our teacher was introducing us to the harpsichord and she told us that the sound could be imitated by sticking a flat metal thumb-tack in a piano hammer. So, of course, I went home with the idea of doing exactly that. I tried it. I was satisfied with the sound. I removed it and never told anyone (my dad's pretty laid-back, but my mom would have had a fit). So, there is a pinhole in one of the hammers (not that it makes a difference in sound now).

It'll be our little secret.

[not edward]

John Cage has to be the best internet troll ever... dead over 20 years and still finding victims.

[milk]

Cage fight!
Nothing wrong with that. Messiaen, too, was fascinated with color. Probably more so than Cage.

I don't like Cage's music, but I like his ideas (particularly on silence). Would someone have come up with it later had he not done so? Of course -- but this can be said about most things/inventions.

However, the music of his close friend Morton Feldman is among my favorite. Not quite up there with my top 5 (currently Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Messiaen, Haydn), but not too far off, either. For me, Feldman took some of Cage's ideas and made some of the most unique music with it. Depending on how you feel at the time, the same Feldman piece can come off as serene and peaceful or intense and even slightly foreboding. It's like those holograms that change pictures depending on the angle that your eyes approach.

I credit Feldman with opening up the whole world of contemporary classical music to me. I think Feldman is in my current top 5. Before I listened to Feldman a lot of things were closed. It was a great joy to discover Feldman's music. I credit my enjoyment of Grisey or Xenakis or Terry Riley or John Cage or anything "modern" to Feldman. Feldman was my bridge to a whole world of music. 

[Karl Henning]

Feldman is an eye- (ear-) opener, all right.

[milk]

Feldman is an eye- (ear-) opener, all right.

He turned on a light for me the way Bach turned on a light that led to an interest in classical music in general. I think I've always needed that. Maybe it's a little bit of obsessiveness in my personality but I need to get really into one particular composer first and then I can move to liking others. I listened to a bunch of Schumann before I got into other romantics. Debussy got me out of romanticism and Shostakovich got my feet firmly planted in the 20th century. I can't say why not Brahms or Ravel for their respective times other than they didn't initially click for me. It might be a question for it's own thread...maybe others are like that too with a particular composer for a particular era or style. I like Mozart well enough but he didn't launch a passion for "classical." That was Bach. I spent more than a year listening only to Bach before I thought, "ok, so what else is there?" I also explored classical pretty much chronologically...   

[torut]

The whole score is downloadable here, but when I looked at it I couldn't see a preface or instructions.

http://modisti.com/news/?p=10091

Thank you for the link. There is actually an instruction in the first page. I feel that Crismani did not follow it strictly, especially the following one:

    In a performance the correspondence between space and time should be such that the music "sounds" as it "looks."

By the way, this seems the original web page of the article, with uncorrupted pictures of Cage, Sultan, Schleiermacher.


John Cage with Grete Sultan

[bhodges]

Today would have been John Cage's 102nd birthday. I'm marking the occasion with a performance tonight by over a dozen singers, in selections from his Song Books (1970). Personally, it would make me happy to hear the one for voice and pile driver. 

http://avantmedia.org/what/celebrating-cage/birthday-celebrations/john-cage-102/

--Bruce