John Cage (1912-92)

Started by Lethevich, October 02, 2008, 10:22:06 PM

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TheGSMoeller

Thanks, Edward. Looks as if Schleiermacher is the way to go.

San Antone

Anyone interested in Cage's music for string quartet can find two CDs by the Arditti Quartet:

Vol. 1 (Music for Four: for string qt/World premiere; Thirty Pieces for String Qt)

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Vol. 2 (String Quartet in Four Parts; Four)

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And this one, which contains 44 Harmonies from Apartment House 1776 and Cheap Imitation:

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The JACK Quartet has performed String Quartet in Four Parts on this recording:

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San Antone

not sure if this recording of the complete works for prepared piano has been discussed; I listened to the concerto and thought it well done:

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Giancarlo Simonacci, piano - Orch. V. Galilei, dir. Nicola Paszkowski

San Antone

#403
Probably the best disc of all the piano concertos:

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Stephen Drury is the pianist in the prepared piano concerto and Fourteen but David Tudor does the concert, which is reliable.

San Antone

In memory of John Cage, who died today in 1992, I will be listening to his Number Pieces.

Karl Henning

"It was twenty years ago today . . . ."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Uatu

So it's John Cage's birthday today for another few minutes. Perhaps it might be interesting to discuss him a bit, maybe get some flame war going here  >:D

Personally I like very little of Cage's music, despite the fact that I've actually performed some of it! In a nutshell, his early works seem to me to be designed as rhythmic accompaniment for Merce's dance company. His prepared piano concept is great, hands down. But after hearing authentic Gamelan music, it's no longer that interesting, since it sounds like "dilettante Gamelan".

Some works that I DO like are the tape pieces he did (Fontana Mix, Williams Mix, basically anything with the word "Mix" in it. They are kaleidoscopic and exciting and are endlessly rewarding. However, as compositions, they don't work, since they are all based on chance operations. And this is where I really go rogue: I can't stand chance operation-based music. The idea of leaving composition to chance is designed to remove the composer's taste from the equation. Frankly, I WANT the composer's taste. If I want to hear unpredictable music (which is the other benefit of chance operation), I can just use the shuffle mode on iTunes. The best is loading up the BBC Sound Effects 60 CD collection and just play it on shuffle. It's even better if you have 2 versions running at the same time (actually, with this set up you no longer need to hear Luc Ferrari either). Getting back to Fontana Mix (the composition), I have never heard a realization of Fontana Mix that I liked besides the original one Cage did using tape. This is because of the open-endedness of the composition itself.

The other Cage work which I love is Cartridge Music, but again, only the original version. The reason is that that recording is actually a multi-tracked recording with several performances at the same time layered on top of each other. The idea of using phono cartridges is great, but again the actual composition is so open ended that one could just free improv on one's own with a contact mike.

Now, is it possible that Cage actually did NOT use chance in his compositions? I seem to recall that James Pritchett's book "The Music of John Cage" reports that Cage would "throw out" some dice readings if he didn't like them. However Alvin Lucier's book "Music 109" says that he never ever threw out any readings and adhered to the chance results completely. If the former, then I think that would be more interesting, especially since it would at least reflect Cage's personality and not just a random number generator.

Anyways, after the early period, there's no more prepared piano or electronic tape collages for the most part (Europeras being kind of the closest thing, but not as intricate). The later "number bracket" pieces don't do anything for me. Again, chance-generated notes in indeterminate rhythm. I suppose these musical artifacts can be appreciated in a Warholian soup can sense, but I personally find them a bit dull. I of course will defend all of Cage's works' validity with great fervor, since they are quite innovative, but the basic idea of "letting sounds be sounds" does not make these works musically interesting to me. Thoughts? Can someone show me the light?

torut

Since you read Lucier's Music 109, perhaps you also read this (regarding Music of Changes):

"It really isn't random at all in a certain sense. So much is chosen and controlled by the composer. So much is personal. No other music sounds like this; it sounds like Cage."

That's what I feel. What are "chosen" and "controlled" are the sound materials, the replacement procedures, how dynamics appear, etc.

San Antone

Quote from: Uatu on September 05, 2015, 08:29:14 PM
So it's John Cage's birthday today for another few minutes. Perhaps it might be interesting to discuss him a bit, maybe get some flame war going here  >:D

Now, is it possible that Cage actually did NOT use chance in his compositions? I seem to recall that James Pritchett's book "The Music of John Cage" reports that Cage would "throw out" some dice readings if he didn't like them. However Alvin Lucier's book "Music 109" says that he never ever threw out any readings and adhered to the chance results completely. If the former, then I think that would be more interesting, especially since it would at least reflect Cage's personality and not just a random number generator.

Cage adhered absolutely to the chance operations.  He was quoted to have said when asked if he did not like the results did he alter them, and I paraphrase, "I would not change the music, I changed myself."    The bolded excerpt from your post expresses how you do not understand what Cage was about  His entire orientation was to remove himself from the process, which was a result of his study and practice of Zen, and why he used chance operations in the first place (which involved a number of different processes besides I Ching or flipping coins).


Karl Henning

Interesting discussion, gents.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Uatu

Quote from: torut on September 05, 2015, 09:10:54 PM
Since you read Lucier's Music 109, perhaps you also read this (regarding Music of Changes):

"It really isn't random at all in a certain sense. So much is chosen and controlled by the composer. So much is personal. No other music sounds like this; it sounds like Cage."

That's what I feel. What are "chosen" and "controlled" are the sound materials, the replacement procedures, how dynamics appear, etc.

Funny, I read that Lucier passage just a few minutes after I wrote my post (I'm reading 3 modern music book simultaneously and all 3 suddenly converged on Cage, which prompted me to try to open a discussion about him).  Anyways, yes that's certainly food for thought.  I suppose what I would say is that I like Cage as an arranger or editor (producer), rather than a composer in the sense of a craftsman (like in the "classical" sense).  Now regarding the replacement procedures and dynamics, that would seem to suggest that these are not based on chance, in which case ego and taste are involved.  This goes against Lucier's prior claim to total authenticity of his chance operations. 

Actually the Lucier book is getting on my nerves, it's very informative and clearly-written, but when he calls Stockhausen's Momente "grotesque and overheated" he diminishes himself with editorializing.  He uses these adjectives to describe it because Stockhausen uses the choir in technically demanding ways outside of the normal range of voice.  By that reasoning, Beethoven's 9th is also "grotesque and overheated"....

Sanantonio: Please re-read my text more carefully.  Thanks.

San Antone

#411
Quote from: Uatu on September 06, 2015, 08:13:31 AM

Sanantonio: Please re-read my text more carefully.  Thanks.

QuoteCan someone show me the light?

It is fairly obvious to me that you are not receptive to Cage's aesthetic.  Nothing wrong with that.  And since you are someone who values Stockhausen's music to a great deal it is not surprising.  There is an exchange between Stockhausen and Morton Feldman that I think might illuminate the intrinsic difference between composers such as Feldman and Cage and a composer like Stockhausen (or most other composers of the 20th century), and possibly an insight into why you fail to appreciate what Cage is accomplishing.

Feldman: I spent the weekend with Karlheinz Stockhausen, and he had a lot of my scores, and he took them to his room and said goodnight. And he came down in the morning and he said, "I know you have no system, but what is your secret?" And I said to him, "Well, Karlheinz, I have no secret but if I could say anything to you, I advise you to leave the sounds alone; don't push them; because they're very much like human beings - if you push them, they push you back. So if I have a secret it would be, 'don't push the sounds'." And he leaned over me and he said, "Not even a little bit?"'

Now, while Feldman's working methods were very different form Cage's, the idea of not "pushing" with the sounds is the common ground between them. 

Also, the best stuff to read about John Cage are his writings; not those by others.  Cage has left plenty of articles, lectures, etc., and that is where one should look in order to gain a better understanding of his music.  Not to others who've written about Cage, and who generally attempt to rationalize his approach in ways Cage never felt necessary and in the process distort what he was about.

torut

Quote from: Uatu on September 06, 2015, 08:13:31 AM
Funny, I read that Lucier passage just a few minutes after I wrote my post (I'm reading 3 modern music book simultaneously and all 3 suddenly converged on Cage, which prompted me to try to open a discussion about him).  Anyways, yes that's certainly food for thought.  I suppose what I would say is that I like Cage as an arranger or editor (producer), rather than a composer in the sense of a craftsman (like in the "classical" sense).  Now regarding the replacement procedures and dynamics, that would seem to suggest that these are not based on chance, in which case ego and taste are involved.  This goes against Lucier's prior claim to total authenticity of his chance operations.

I think he meant that, once the rules (procedure) of chance operation had been established, Cage never rejected whatever the results of the operation. There seems no contradiction.

However, choosing rules itself reflects Cage's personal taste. It contradicts Cage's general statement about removing personal ego from music, but I rather find the contradiction interesting. I think it is impossible to eliminate personal taste from a work created by a person, even for field recordings or computer generated music (choosing recording locations & editing, designing the algorithm, choosing the ranges of parameters, etc. inevitably reflect the person's taste), and I like to think about what Cage really wanted to achieve.

QuoteActually the Lucier book is getting on my nerves, it's very informative and clearly-written, but when he calls Stockhausen's Momente "grotesque and overheated" he diminishes himself with editorializing.  He uses these adjectives to describe it because Stockhausen uses the choir in technically demanding ways outside of the normal range of voice.  By that reasoning, Beethoven's 9th is also "grotesque and overheated"....

I just started reading the Lucier's book and it's fun. :D He got mad about Bernstein's treatment of Cage's work, and on his attempt at improvisation with the orchestra, Lucier's comment: "(Dumb.)"

Uatu

OK, thanks for the discussion sanantonio and torut, good stuff, exactly the kind of discourse I was looking for. 

Yeah, not receptive to Cage, guilty.  I do however understand his music very well (I think), having performed several of his pieces at Cage music festivals (even recorded a CD with a Cage work on it), been to his former home, met many of his close friends, read innumerable books and scores of his over the last 25 years, and as of yet I still haven't sold off my well-worn copy of "Silence".  :)
So despite my initial meant-to-be-somewhat-provocative post, I'm actually a fan - but of only about 1/10th of his oeuvre.   I actually jumped off the Cage bandwagon about 10 years ago, though his influence in contemporary music is so profound, it's hard to avoid.  I think my deep study of Stockhausen has indeed made me more wary of Cage, as you suggest.  Though of course, Stockhausen was one of Cage's staunchest defenders at Darmstadt, and really his only ally in Europe (especially after the break with Boulez). 

Like Stockhausen, I admire his ingenuity and innovation, but his method of realizing his ideas (using chance) leaves me cold.  Why not push the sounds?   That is the heart of the problem.  Beethoven is probably my favorite composer of all time, so obviously it's not just Stockhausen who might affect my judgement.  Cage said he hated Beethoven, so that doesn't really win any points for me either...

BTW, I know that story you posted, but the best one is when Morty and KS were in the audience and Morty received an award.  When they called Morty's name, he had trouble getting up fast enough, and Stockhausen immediately got up and started to take some bows.  Morty said "Karlheinz, stop it - my mother's in the audience!"

As far as reading Cage's own writings, as I said I've had Silence and Year from Monday for a long time.   I even heard the 4 hour Cage/Morty radio show.   But the Pritchett book (The Music of John Cage) is superb, and as good a book on a single composer as I've ever read.  I believe Pritchett's writings can be trusted as even Cage himself needed Pritchett's help in order to complete the Freeman Etudes. 

As far as that Bernstein concert with Etudes Australes and the improv attempt, I've got the record (of the improv part).  It's not great, but I've heard worse.   I was a Bernstein freak a few years ago and I read some more about this concert, but I just can't recall any specifics.  However my feeling was that Bernstein was very respectful of the music.  I wonder if an audio transcript of Bernstein bashing Cage exists?  Bernstein did commission a work from Stockhausen after all (Hymnen 3rd Region), so he didn't exactly hate thorny avant-garde music.

San Antone

After I posted my last I did think that the only book other than Cage's writings I would recommend would be the Pritchett book.

Karl Henning

Interestingly, a colleague posted this not long ago (this very afternoon) on Facebook:
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Uatu

I like this.  I like fortune cookies too.  Cage was a pretty decent writer of aphorisms.  I am however resisting the urge to crack wise, due to my normally cynical personality.   Oh, wait..

torut

Quote from: Uatu on September 06, 2015, 11:41:25 AMAs far as that Bernstein concert with Etudes Australes and the improv attempt, I've got the record (of the improv part).  It's not great, but I've heard worse.   I was a Bernstein freak a few years ago and I read some more about this concert, but I just can't recall any specifics.  However my feeling was that Bernstein was very respectful of the music.  I wonder if an audio transcript of Bernstein bashing Cage exists?  Bernstein did commission a work from Stockhausen after all (Hymnen 3rd Region), so he didn't exactly hate thorny avant-garde music.

The Bernstein's speech at the concert can be heard here.
https://www.youtube.com/v/nky14InylDM
It seems he confused improvisation and chance operation. Cage was very against improvisation as "the exercise of taste and memory."

Uatu

Quote from: torut on September 07, 2015, 02:24:06 PM
The Bernstein's speech at the concert can be heard here.
https://www.youtube.com/v/nky14InylDM
It seems he confused improvisation and chance operation. Cage was very against improvisation as "the exercise of taste and memory."

Wow - thanks so much!  I feel like I may have heard this before, but not in many years.  Yeah, it's as I remembered.  How can Lucier characterize this as "denigrating the music, embarrassing"?  I think Lenny was very accurate in everything he said.  He was very specific saying that Atlas Eclipticalis and Cage's works had no improvisation at all.  I guess he wanted to play an improv just to show the full spectrum of aleatoric music (of which improv and chance composition are both a part of, in my definition).  In chance, the aleatoric nature comes in the act of notation.  In improv, the aleatoric element comes at the moment of performance.  Of course, typically aleatoric music has some pitch set or graphic scheme, but this was just a logical extreme... 

snyprrr

Where to follow on from Feldman? Well, duh,...

Yea, I just cruised 65 Pages of Amazon to get to this Thread, wow,... whew,...


OK, so, where to start? We have a lot of work to do in as little time as possible...



1) I'm not interested in anything before 195(*)... I don't yet know which year Cage "changed", but, I do know (uhhh??) that 'Book of Changes' is '58... whenever he stopped doing the "prepared piano" stuff... you know, I want the Super Ultra High Modern "tinckle-splatt"... I guess we're shooting for the Best Overall Piano Recitals:

Book of Changes
Etudes Australes

2) Everything changes with the Feldman, opps, I mean, "Number Pieces". It's just soooo obvious to me that Late Cage has the same "profile" as Feldman, so, please, I'm not here to argue it, I just want long stretches of music I can repeat... you know what I want (coming from Feldman)...

3)'Ryangi'...'Roanji'... whatever it's called,... what's the best way to hear this?

4) NO VOCALS PLEASE... NO TALKING... NO JESTING... just instrumental, please

5) The Orchestral Number Pieces (56, 68, 78(?), 80, 101, 108, 110)

6) The Ensemble Number Pieces (Six, Seven1/2, Eight, Thirteen, Fourteen,...)

7) Any Absolutely Fantasic "Various" Recitals??




I will be brutal here.






WHAT I'VE HAD OR LISTENED TO... MY "CAGE HISTORY":

1) Five3 (trombone and string quartet): I've had both Mode and Vanguard, had the latter on all night long... eh, it's OK... mm... what do you think? The Vanguard recording is OK, but, eh, mm,....

2) String Quartet in Four Parts: not for this perusal

3) Four: Arditti/Montaigne- very quiet, was just playing and I didn't even notice!

4) Music for Four/ 30 Pieces for String Quartet: Arditti/Mode- OK, I don't like the recording so much, but, mm, it's OK, kind of homogenous (probably I need different timbres for Cage?). There is an alternative recording for the latter, also with the Arditti...

5) Atlas E./Concert for P+O (WERGO): had this a long time ago, don't know why I got rid of it... I guess I like it?

6) Roanji- on some flute disc- maybe this version didn't have all that much going on. What about the HatHut version?

7) various percussion discs with one Cage piece- most all earlier stuff- no Number Pieces yet...

8)




fuuuuuu... just sliced my finger real nice like.....gaaaahhhhhh >:D 0:)