Schonberg on Sibelius

[karlhenning]

I have Sibelius 4th symphony as one of my favorite symphonies . . . .

I was actually very curious about Corey's finding the Sixth a 'meditation upon mortality' . . . I've never heard it that way, and of course the Fourth is a much bleaker, more 'deathly' work.

[karlhenning]

Also quite surprised at Corey's 'program' for the piece.  The Sixth always had my complete attention, just as music; not that it's got to be the same for everyone (and I may well be unusual in this).

[Kullervo]

Also quite surprised at Corey's 'program' for the piece.  The Sixth always had my complete attention, just as music; not that it's got to be the same for everyone (and I may well be unusual in this).

Well it's not necessarily a program, it's just impossible to describe what is purely musical in non-musical terms any other way (which is unfortunately the only way I can talk about music).

[karlhenning]

Well it's not necessarily a program, it's just impossible to describe what is purely musical in non-musical terms any other way (which is unfortunately the only way I can talk about music).

No worries;  we all labor under the same difficulty.  I think well of your attempt to grapple with the difficulty, especially towards the end of trying to illuminate the piece for Eric.

I've now put on the Maazel/Vienna recording of the Fourth, which is the recording which opened my ears to that great piece.

[karlhenning]

There is a drive, energy and cheerfulness in much of the Sixth, so I don't think of its music as at all 'mortal' . . . the Fourth has its clouds, its stern grandeur, a deliberateness to it, which is of a very different character.

Of course, Sibelius never wrote the same symphony twice, which is one of the things I admire about his cycle.

[Mark G. Simon]

I actually do hear a "program" in the 6th. It is the only Sibelius symphony I have burdened in this way. If I were a film director, I'd want to make a film of it. It would be more a sequence of images than a story. But the program is something totally of my invention and would not necessarily expect anyone else to hear it that way. It all takes place on an isolated stretch of beach and -- well, it's not worth going into details; I don't want to spoil the symphony for anybody. But there's a place close to the end of the first movement where you hear a passing ship blowing its horn as a heavy fog rolls in. Sibelius sometimes uses the cinematic technique of cross-cutting to achieve a transition between sections, for instance at the moment when the opening "Palestrina" music in the strings gives way to a shining C major chord in the brass. For a moment they both linger dissonantly together, but the brass chord fades in and remains after the Palestrina music disappears. That could be why I think of this symphony in cinematic terms.

[karlhenning]

. . . Sibelius sometimes uses the cinematic technique of cross-cutting to achieve a transition between sections, for instance at the moment when the opening "Palestrina" music in the strings gives way to a shining C major chord in the brass. For a moment they both linger dissonantly together, but the brass chord fades in and remains after the Palestrina music disappears. That could be why I think of this symphony in cinematic terms.

That is a stunning moment, which has made an indelible impression on me.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Karl,

How do you know for certain that it was an 'unguarded moment' on Jbuck's part when he declared Sibelius 'a simpering mediocrity' ?

I do not agree with his assessment of Sibelius of course but remember that he has on several occasions said that Brahms and Debussy were the last truly great composers.

[Kullervo]

It was more probably an unmedicated moment.

[karlhenning]

Eric, if anyone calls Sibelius a "simpering mediocrity," it is not a statement which commands anything remotely like musical respect.

[Homo Aestheticus]

But I am sure that there are many professors at the Harvard and Yale music departments who do not think highly of Sibelius.

[lukeottevanger]

But I am sure that there are many professors at the Harvard and Yale music departments who do not think highly of Sibelius.

Oh, give it a rest, Eric. This groundless anti-academicism of yours (and Sean's) is just tedious and, as in most of these oppositions you like to set up, not recognisable in the real world of music.

Of course I can't speak for Harvard or Yale, but at my university, as high profile as either of these, there was the highest respect for Sibelius amongst all the staff of every level. Indeed, he was the subject of part of the Music Tripos during my second year - one of the most striking memories I have, in fact, is the rapt awe with which we were introduced to Luonnotar, and the way in which it held a whole roomful of us budding academics speechless in its spell.

FWIW, a good friend of mine there and a fine academic later became the editor of the Cambridge Companion to Sibelius, among other things.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Me, too.
Do you have a favorite? So far I like 4 the best, though I'm sure that's not a surprise at all. 

The Second.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Oh, give it a rest, Eric. This groundless anti-academicism of yours (and Sean's) is just tedious and, as in most of these oppositions you like to set up, not recognisable in the real world of music.

Of course I can't speak for Harvard or Yale, but at my university, as high profile as either of these, there was the highest respect for Sibelius amongst all the staff of every level. Indeed, he was the subject of part of the Music Tripos during my second year - one of the most striking memories I have, in fact, is the rapt awe with which we were introduced to Luonnotar, and the way in which it held a whole roomful of us budding academics speechless in its spell.

FWIW, a good friend of mine there and a fine academic later became the editor of the Cambridge Companion to Sibelius, among other things.

O.k. Luke.

(Jeez, I better get a hold of a recording of  Luonnotar...and pronto.)

 

[Guido]

Just as a side issue, what do people consider essential Sibelius besides the violin concerto and the seven symphonies (i.e. the pieces I own!)? By far my favourite piece of these few that I have already heard is the Seventh Symphony.

[lukeottevanger]

Tapiola, as James says, definitely. Luonnotar, as I mentioned earlier. These two stand out, for me, as works of the very highest degree of refinement and quality. The other symphonic poems too, though (Oceanides, Nightride, Pohjula's Daughter, The Bard, En Saga etc....), and the Four Leminkainen Legends - they make a wonderful complement to the symphonies. The early Kullervo is also important to hear, to flesh out the image of Sibelius as a younger composer, but also in its own right, as a hugely ambitious, lusty, full-throated piece.

[karlhenning]

. . . and The Tempest suites.

[Guido]

Cheers guys. I will look for some recordings. What about songs/chamber music?

[karlhenning]

Hmm . . . there are some songs on an gEMIni two-fer I've got, but I haven't listened to them yet.

[Guido]

This CD seems to have most of the pieces that Luke mentioned: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Finlandia-Karelia/dp/B0000041L7/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1223857825&sr=8-1

Good?