Schonberg on Sibelius

[Mark G. Simon]

Gentlemen, please return to topic, i.e., comments on Sibelius (and/or Schoenberg).  If further personal sniping is desired (or goodwill wishes  ), please do it via P.M.  Thank you...

--Bruce

It's Harold Schonberg who is the co-subject of this thread, not Arnold. Around 1911 Sibelius was asked which contemporary composers interested him most, and he named Arnold Schoenberg. I think it was the Kammersymphonie op. 9 that caught his ear.

[bhodges]

It's Harold Schonberg who is the co-subject of this thread, not Arnold. Around 1911 Sibelius was asked which contemporary composers interested him most, and he named Arnold Schoenberg. I think it was the Kammersymphonie op. 9 that caught his ear.

Dang, I'm gonna book me a flight to Australia.    Thanks, Mark...

--Bruce

[Kuhlau]

Having just read The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold Schonberg, and of his indifference to Sibelius (summarizing somewhat begrudgingly that he should occupy a place amongst the minor composers), there is a reference that I am not qualified to answer. He states that although there is a large fondness of his music particularly amongst the English and American public, he knew of no professional musicians who saw anything much in his work.

If I might be permitted to quote a member of CMG (who in turn quotes Schonberg):


Well, the not-always-scholarly Harold C. Schonberg, when doing his '97 revision of The Lives Of The Great Composers, saw fit to change little in his original '70 assessment of Sibelius' standing (ludicrous when considering how much Salonen, Ashkenazy & the Jarvis were performing him at the time):

Sibelius' reputation fast dissipated after his death in 1957. In 1965, the centenary of his birth arrived with all the force of a feather against an iron anvil. There were a few memorial concerts in the US, but the public did not seem to care much one way or the other, and most professional musicians could not have been less interested.

In the US the decline of Sibelius started in 1940. Just as [Owen] Downes had been instrumental in setting Sibelius on his pedestal, so another critic was in tearing him off. Virgil Thomson ... heard the Sibelius Second and found it "vulgar, self-indulgent and provincial beyond all description." In a typical Thomsonian burst he realized that there were sincere Sibelius lovers in the world, "although I must say I've never met one among educated professional musicians."

Thomson was only echoing what many musicians were thinking. To them, Sibelius was little better than an anachronistic relic of post-romanticism. In a way that is curious, for starting with the Fourth Symphony in 1911 Sibelius brought something to music that was new, provocative, and anti-romantic. Breaking away from the long developments of the Mahler and Bruckner symphonic style, Sibelius worked with short motifs and a terse kind of development. It has been described as a mosaic style, and it succeeds in avoiding the romantic rhetoric.

Yet many professionals after WWII found Sibelius a dated bore. Schoenberg and Webern were the heroes; serialism had triumphed (if Mahler was suddenly popular, it was because the serialists had decided that in Mahler lay the seeds of the serial movement). There may have been still another reason Sibelius was scorned. Professionals look for consistency in a composer. They distrust a creator who constantly turns out music not on a high level, and regard as freaks those few works that cause a ripple. How could the composer of Valse Triste and the Romance in D-flat be taken seriously?

A large quantity of Sibelius' work consists of ephemera. He composed a only a handful of works with any chance of survival. If a new age produces a resurgent romanticism, Sibelius could come back with it, talking with an individual voice when at his best, and he deserves an honorable place among the minor composers.

Purest hokum, those last few statements, in view of the Completist CD-Collector Movement.


Those interested in this thread might also want to delve into the one on CMG from which I took the above: Sibelius - Why so despised? (That is, if such hasn't already been suggested - I'll admit to not having read all 11 pages here. )

FK

[drogulus]

     

Yet many professionals after WWII found Sibelius a dated bore. Schoenberg and Webern were the heroes; serialism had triumphed (if Mahler was suddenly popular, it was because the serialists had decided that in Mahler lay the seeds of the serial movement). There may have been still another reason Sibelius was scorned. Professionals look for consistency in a composer. They distrust a creator who constantly turns out music not on a high level, and regard as freaks those few works that cause a ripple. How could the composer of Valse Triste and the Romance in D-flat be taken seriously?

     I don't know about professionals, but music lovers in the '40s considered Sibelius to be the greatest living composer. Colliers magazine, now long gone, did a survey of its readers and this was the answer they gave. Is this judgment that far off base? I don't think so. Sibelius was more popular than any living composer today. And outside the tiny avant garde cult I'm sure Sibelius would count as among the most influential with his peers. A small group of critics (shall we call them "fellow travelers"?) made a fuss about what counted as permissible styles in music, acting as cheerleaders for the ultras, and these persons exhibited most of the worst behavior. Schoenberg, in contrast, would not hear anything against Shostakovich, saying he was born to compose, and Berg said to Gershwin when he was reluctant to play his music in front of the great man "Mr. Gershwin, music is music".

     

[Brian]

Making authority of the readers of Collier's magazine is hardly serious: Collier's in the forties was a mass-circulation magazine that sold itself to ill-educated people by serializing the popular fictions of the likes of Zane Grey and the Fu Manchu series. Fu Manchu!!!! What a joke. And Sibelius, influential?  Among his peers?!!!  What peers is that? Debussy? Scriabin? Stravinsky? Bartok? Messiaen? Lutoslawski? Dutilleux? But none of them were influenced by Sibelius. True enough, Sibelius is not their peer: we are in agreement on that point. LOL. Well then, what peers? Eric Tanguy? Tanguy certainly has studied Sibelius carefully; the poor fool thinks that's something to boast about!!  But Tanguy is so insignificant, even the most rabid of Boulez-haters won't dare promote him. LOL.

LOL's on you. The point of the reader survey is not that Sibelius is the best, but that he was the most well-liked. In other words, Collier's found that people just liked Sibelius better than Bartok, Messiaen, Berg, etc. And it's not hard to see why.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

LOL's on you. The point of the reader survey is not that Sibelius is the best, but that he was the most well-liked. In other words, Collier's found that people just liked Sibelius better than Bartok, Messiaen, Berg, etc. And it's not hard to see why.

LOL is right. Two-Toes totally misread Drog's post. Then brags about it.

[Mark G. Simon]

I must say I've never heard of this Tanguy. I wonder, if he's so insignificant, why he represents such a threat to Two-Tone. Surely Tanguy could be counted on to disappear on his own if his music is so trivial. But since Two-Tone seems terribly threatened by it, I think I'm going to have to look up this Tanguy and give him a listen. Thanks for the tip.

[Dundonnell]

I must say I've never heard of this Tanguy. I wonder, if he's so insignificant, why he represents such a threat to Two-Tone. Surely Tanguy could be counted on to disappear on his own if his music is so trivial. But since Two-Tone seems terribly threatened by it, I think I'm going to have to look up this Tanguy and give him a listen. Thanks for the tip.

I too had never heard of Tanguy!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Jan08/Tanguy_v5078.htm

Now that I have read a little about him I must investigate further. Sounds good!

[Brian]

The disc Dundonnell links to (two Tanguy cello concerti) is currently on sale for $12 from ArkivMusic. Interesting that one of the works was commissioned by Rostropovich after he heard Tanguy's music in concert...  

I might check the album out of my campus library, if they have it.

[Brian]

As a matter of fact the LOL's on you, as you have not read drogulus' post before getting involved in this bicker. Drogulus in that post claimed the public during the 1940's "claimed Sibelius to be the greatest living composer," and then used the Collier's survey to make his point. You should read posts before making a fuss over petty details. But that's besides the point. The point is, Collier's was not a journal for literate people; it was a popular magazine, aimed at people who thought the stories of Zane Grey and Sax Rohmer is literature. And to make authority of the musical sentiments of such a public, is no more serious than to make authority of the opinion of Shakespeare, held by fans of Rosanne Barr.

How likely do you think it is that the common, everyday "idiot on the streets" would know Jean Sibelius well enough to write his name in a survey for best composer? Drog's claim is "music lovers in the '40s considered Sibelius to be the greatest living composer," and even if Colliers were the equivalent of Readers Digest, his point would still be a legitimate one. Roseanne fans wouldn't even be able to answer the question, let alone come up with an answer that's viable in field of intellectual battle.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

As a matter of fact the LOL's on you, as you have not read drogulus' post before getting involved in this bicker.

Hey, I read Drog's post. Let me show you the obvious that you somehow missed (*psst*, it's the first five words):

I don't know about professionals...

[Kullervo]

Well then, what peers?

Vagn Holmboe, Per Nørgård, Magnus Lindberg, the entire French Spectralisme school (which essentially sprung from Boulez's IRCAM), basically the entire British scene between the two World Wars — not to mention that there was no serious musical tradition in Finland before him.

[Bulldog]

Mark Simon should indeed check out Eric Tanguy. That third fiddle's music is indeed taylor made for one - Mark Simon that is - whose balls shrivel to less than peas, when confronted with the word: "Boo" (-lez). LOL.

Have you been spying on Mark?

[Brian]

When it fits in the keyhole it isn't worth spying upon   

I feel like I'm trapped in the one-liner thread.

[karlhenning]

I feel like I'm trapped in the one-liner thread.

Heck, I thought tanguy was the plural of tango.

[Kullervo]

A different Tanguy (as revealed by a Google search):



Would you believe he was a Surrealist? 

[Mark G. Simon]

Uh oh. Two-toes is interested in my privates. I'm calling the cops.

[Dundonnell]

Vagn Holmboe, Per Nørgård, Magnus Lindberg, the entire French Spectralisme school (which essentially sprung from Boulez's IRCAM), basically the entire British scene between the two World Wars — not to mention that there was no serious musical tradition in Finland before him.

Who??

You are, of course, absolutely correct Indeed one could argue that there is hardly a single Scandinavian composer who has not been to some extent influenced by the music of Sibelius

[karlhenning]

His shadow looms large.

Must be the low-lying sun in the Finnish winter 

[Dundonnell]

We can always rely on Karl for some profoundly insightful comment

Indeed, the long shadow of Ainola

As I have said(boasted) before, I bet I am the only member here whose father nearly met Sibelius once. He had an invitation from the future Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937 to visit Sibelius at his country retreat but for some reason(?) the meeting fell through