Barenboim

[Don]

Recently heard a bit of this ... and promptly struck it from my Amazon Wish List.

Good man.  If it's a duel between Barenboim's Chopin or Bach, I'd take his Chopin every time.  It isn't that he's poor in Bach, but I think he plays Bach exactly as planned. 

[Bunny]

You don't seriously think he would leave Schubert untouched did you ?

He conducted the Chicago SO in an 8th last season that was for the ages.  It was the best 8th ever.  Muti and the WP sounded plodding and boring in comparison.   I don't know if this recording is going to be similar, but I know that it's not going to be as good.  That was a once in a lifetime show.  I'll probably get this set, though.

[MishaK]

Small list of DB's greatest hits:

Conductor:

- Beethoven/Staatskapelle cycle (already praised in this thread)

- Schumann/Staatskapelle cycle (can't be praised enough)

- Mahler 5/CSO, Mahler 7 & 9/Staatskapelle (the latter two absolute top recommendations, No.5 perhaps not as clear and glorious as Chailly, but of comparable quality)

- Furtwängler Symphony No.2/CSO (miles ahead of the composer's own ferklempt effort, the orchestral execution is also superior)

- Bruckner 0, 4, 7 & 9 CSO/DG (infinitely better than the same symphonies on the later BPO/Teldec cycle, No.s 0 and 9 among my top choices for those works)

- Bruckner 2 BPO/Teldec (the one from that cycle that is truly outstanding, really warm, touching playing from the orchestra)

- Lohengrin/Staatsoper Berlin (Seiffert in outstanding voice and top orchestral playing)

- Brahms/CSO cycle (I don't know if I'm the only one, but this is one of my all-time favorite Brahms cycles. I keep returning to it. The sound of the orchestra is magnificent, warm, dark, blended and unlike anything Solti produced. Wonderful performances)

- Bayreuth Kupfer Ring (get this on DVD, singers are variable, but orchestral playing is top and the visuals are unique)

- Debussy orchestral works Orchestre de Paris (top performances, shows what a great orchestra the OdP was under DB)

- Berlioz Symphonie fantastique OdP (ditto, though in some respects I prefer DB's later CSO version, where DB seems to have applied some lessons from the HIP performers in managing orchestral timbres, colors and balances - last two movements in particular - but the OdP performance is more thrilling)

- Mozart late Symphonies ECO/EMI (forgotten, underrated, but magnificent big boned, but urgent interpretations - no porcelain or Schlagobers with this Mozart - cheaply reissued on EMI twofers)

- on DVD: last year's all-Mozart Europa Konzert of the BPO (just phenomenal playing all-around)

Pianist:

- Mozart PCs/BPO (not the earlier ECO/EMI recordings. The BPO playing is just ideal, orchestra and soloist are engaged in dialogue on the same wavelength)

- Brahms PCs/Barbirolli (broad, warm, loving performances)

- Beethoven Sonatas (hard to pick a favorite among his three cycles. I haven't heard yet his DVD cycle, which I am told is his best effort, the EMI vs DG choice I would chose in favor of DG because of the more thought out conception of some of the sonatas, others find it too cold, while the EMI cycle is more youthfully engaged)

- Schubert live Vienna recital on Erato/Warner (some of the best Moments Musicaux ever)

- Albeniz Iberia & Espana (many people play this as a folkloristic pastiche. in Barenboim's hands you realize that Albeniz is an impressionist deeply indebted to Debussy's revival of the Spanish musical idiom)

- Brahms Sonata No.3 (I don't know if this is still in print, but I prefer him to Freire and Lupu and I say that having studied and played the work myself - Barenboim is just much more attentive to, and convincing at, fitting in every detailed score instruction with a coherent concept of the whole)

Chamber:

- Beethoven Trios Du Pre/Zukerman (the joy of collective musicmaking at the highest level, preserved on disc)

- Brahms Violin Sonatas Perlman/Sony live Chicago (some of Perlman's best work as well)

- Messiaen Quatuor pour la fin du temps Yordanoff et al (reference material, the other soloists are principal chairs of the Orchestre de Paris during DB's tenure)

- the classic video of the Trout with Du Pre, Mehta et al - timeless - you can catch it on youtube as well

- Brahms Lieder with Jessye Norman

- Beethoven/Mozart wind quintets BPO/CSO players (a rare collection of top artists in rarely recorded repertoire)

He conducted the Chicago SO in an 8th last season that was for the ages.  It was the best 8th ever.  Muti and the WP sounded plodding and boring in comparison.   I don't know if this recording is going to be similar, but I know that it's not going to be as good.  That was a once in a lifetime show.  I'll probably get this set, though.

I thought the 9th he did with the CSO was for the ages. I have some of the Berlin cycle on LP but don't find it nearly as convincing. Rather middle of the road. Those CSO Schubert performances in his last two seasons here were truly inspired. According to the CSO website some of those sessions were taped. here's hoping they will show up on a new CSO Resound release.

[Bunny]

I'm going by the wrong counting then, Schubert has become very confusing.  This was die Grosse I'm speaking of in NY with the CSO that was so remarkable.  I'll never get the numbers right for Schubert again.

[Bonehelm]

Don't forget Barenboim does piano recordings as well! He was the first to record all 32 Beethoven sonatas if I recall correctly.

Good luck with one of my favorite conductors!

[aquablob]

Don't forget Barenboim does piano recordings as well! He was the first to record all 32 Beethoven sonatas if I recall correctly.

I believe that was Artur Schnabel -- a full generation or two before Barenboim's first effort.

[val]

Last year he recorded Mozart's complete piano Trios, with Znaider and Zlotnikov (it includes the Trio with clarinet). It is a very nice interpretation.

Barenboim's version of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony with the BPO (version of 1877) is also very good.

[from the new world]

Barenboim's version of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony with the BPO (version of 1877) is also very good.

If there is one part of Barenboim's repertoire that is often neglected, it is his Bruckner. Combining both cycles, for example 0,1,4,7,9 from the CSO and 2,3,4,5,6,9 from the BPO then there is a set of excellent performances though I do not feel he has produced a very good 8th yet.

[Hector]

His self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.

His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.

If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.

Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.

It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.

For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.

To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.

He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.

[BorisG]

His self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.

His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.

If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.

Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.

It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.

For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.

To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.

He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.

No, it is only you that would not be missing much.

Furtwangler sound seems far weightier to me, but maybe that is just the musty often distorted recorded sound from two centuries past.

Barenboim's inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his core repertoire? Nay, my toe-meters say otherwise.

Sawallisch Schubert and Schumann had their days. I suppose that is what you mean by classic status. In that someone came along with different ideas, maybe fresher ideas, should not astonish too many, though you may be excused.

Gardiner's Schumann was also informed, but it is the Barenboim that gets my toes tapping and makes me want to spend my money.

[Scarpia]

Barenboim's association with Pierre Boulez deserves to be noted - only one recording of them together, though, Bartok concertos. This association gives Barenboim a well-deserved place in the history of music, as it is he who gave Boulez the idea of orchestrating Notations. And Notations is developing into Boulez's masterpiece, IMO.

Barenboim also recorded the Berg Chamber Concerto with Boulez.

[Verena]

His self-conscious attempts to emulate the "organic" style of conducting of his hero, Furtwangler, have constantly failed on disc.

His inability to achieve rhythmic lift dogs his recordings of the core repertoire.

If you like a "weighty" view then you will love Barenboim.

Simple comparisons can be made between, for example, Sawallisch's recordings of the Schubert and Schumann symphonies and the difference is, simply, astonishing.

It was unfortunate that his cycle of the Schumann symphonies was issued at the same time as Zinman's more informed cycle.

For all Zinman's faults, an inabilty to quite reach the heights of excellence, his performances were a number of rungs above Barenboim's.

To put it simply there is nothing that Barenboim has recorded that has achieved classic status and it unlikely that he ever will.

He should have stayed with the piano although, I suspect, we would not be missing much.

Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist. 

[kishnevi]

Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist.

I think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.

[Scarpia]

Could not agree more. I find Barenboim's interpretations almost consistently underwhelming, both his work as a conductor and as a pianist.

His first Beethoven sonata cycle is top drawer, as well as the recording he made of the Brahms concerti around the same time.  As a conductor it can be hit or miss, but some of the recordings I have heard are extremely satisfying.  As a conductor I find he often has a good idea in mind, but it doesn't always come off.

[Verena]

I think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.

Perhaps I should try that one then

[Verena]

His first Beethoven sonata cycle is top drawer, as well as the recording he made of the Brahms concerti around the same time.  As a conductor it can be hit or miss, but some of the recordings I have heard are extremely satisfying.  As a conductor I find he often has a good idea in mind, but it doesn't always come off.

Hm, I don't really like that first Beethoven cycle. I have around 20 cycles and very many individual recordings, and Barenboim, along with Brendel, are - for me - by far the least preferred of all. I miss the Guldian excitement, the Kempffian wit and singing line, the Richterian power, the Arrauian depth, the rhythmic vigor of Korstick and so many others, etc. etc. - and don't quite see what I get instead. In general, I think, I most miss some kind of "tension" in the playing. In fact, there are so many completely different pianists who I admire in Beethoven - Serkin, Anni & Edwin Fischer, Sokolov, Nat, Gilels, Brautigam,  are some other favorites - but Barenboim is not among them. Perhaps I'd enjoy his live interpretations (I read somewhere  that young Barenboim was much more convincing "live").
But I do have to relisten to the sonatas at some point; just today I noticed how radically my tastes can change. I don't own Barenboim's Brahms concerti, but perhaps I should.

[not edward]

I think highly of his Mahler 9--perhaps one of the best released in the last few years.

Not heard that one, but I'm a very big fan of his Mahler 7. He pulls the tempi about more than most, but IMO makes it work.

[mjwal]

Interesting discussion on DB. I admire him very much as a person, but have never really connected with his recorded performances e.g. the EMI Beethoven, which was raved about when I was still in my early 20s; I was discovering Schnabel at that time and just found the Barenboim I listened to lacking - in wit, in depth, whatever. The Mozart concerti made a similar effect on me, compared with Schnabel, the Fischers, early Brendel...I will freely admit that since that time I have heard little of his work, since I have always been too cash-strapped to risk trying. Recently, though, I essayed the Brahms concerti - and was immediately taken by #1, my (by far) preferred work of the two. Of course, Barbirolli's contribution did its bit too. Last winter I went to the Berliner Philharmonie to hear him and the Staatskapelle playa new piece by Carter, a Bartók concerto with Lupu and Mahler #10/1. I enjoyed the Carter very much although I have forgotten the title; the Bartók I found almost soporific (and have duly forgotten which one, 2 or 3) - which I put down mainly to Lupu, who seemed to be telephoning the performance in; the Mahler was, hmm, beautifully and analytically played - but no...what? "tension" and "lift" have been mentioned here, I prefer to use the German word "Sog", an undertow that pulls one along with its motion: the roll, the rise, the carol, the creation - something like that. But as you will all rush to point out, I must hear his Beethoven, Schumann, Bruckner etc. How to do that without getting into debt I don't know  .

[Verena]

Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many  ). Anyone know this recording by chance?

[kishnevi]

Not heard that one, but I'm a very big fan of his Mahler 7. He pulls the tempi about more than most, but IMO makes it work.

[goes to put that one in his shopping cart]

But I don't like his Mahler 5, which seems to stumble coming out of the starting gate and doesn't ever really recover, to my ears.

And in saying his Mahler 9 was "one of the best of recent years",  I should  have qualified that by saying I like the Chailly recording best of all the recent ones I've heard (have not heard, for instance, Thomas')