The Karajan Legacy (recordings)

[Bunny]

Karajan is the jack of all trades and master of them all.

When you buy a Karajan performance you can bet it is a reference recording the standard of which all others are judged. So go ahead, take the plunge.

I've a number of Karajan recordings that I would rather not hear again.

[Michel]

I am going to post a long post here sometime next week when I have time. I hope between now and then Iago can provide us with some testimony of what he was like to watch live, because it is incredibly important, and is the reason, not PR, that he "captiviated".

[AB68]

9 times out of 10, that's been my experience of Karajan. Everything sounds nice in a superficial way, but only a superficial way. And that can apply to composers he's supposedly good with, like Bruckner.

Please explain how his conducting is "superficial".

[johnshade]

....known for these Strauss recordings:

[bhodges]

Karajan was undoubtedly one of the world's great conductors, and in a fairly wide range of repertoire, too.  I do like many of his Strauss, Mahler and Bruckner recordings, but one of my favorites is his set of Berg, Webern and Schoenberg, with wondrous playing from the Berlin ensemble.  Some who may not respond to these composers in other hands may be more pleased with Karajan's sensuous approach; on the other hand, some fans of these composers may want more angularity.  But in any case, he produces powerfully expressive results, helped by the truly amazing sound from the orchestra. 

Is he "the best conductor ever"?  I don't think so, but then, I can't imagine who would win that title.  But I do cherish many of his recordings, and was fortunate to see him live several times in the 1980s. 

--Bruce

[Harry]

I've a number of Karajan recordings that I would rather not hear again.

Then why did you buy them in the first place?
Send them to me, I know plenty of music lovers that would welcome any recording from Karajan, but have not the means to buy them.

[uffeviking]

Wasn't he one of the first conductors to hire a PR man?  He was certainly extremely good at getting his picture in the tabloids with which ever young cutie he was married to.  He had women screaming after him as if he was Frank Sinatra. 

Wait one cotton-picking minute, if you please! His first wife was either an actress or singer, - I don't have time now to research this, but a not a 'cutie'! - His second wife, the daughter of one of the richest German industrialists, Gütermann. His third wife, Etienne, might fit accusation of being a cutie, she was a professional model and a great fan of his, but not the screaming type! Three wives, the first marriage lasting only a very short time, the second lasting a long time through many trying and hard years and this lady became a close friend of Etienne and a loving 'Oma' to the children of his last marriage.

Have you attended any of is concerts? Have you witnessed, first-hand, screaming women? Let's stick to the facts, please, and if you are not familiar with them, read the biography by Richard Osborne and then come back here to tell us all about Herbert von Karajan's private life!

[Harry]

Wait one cotton-picking minute, if you please! His first wife was either an actress or singer, - I don't have time now to research this, but a not a 'cutie'! - His second wife, the daughter of one of the richest German industrialists, Gütermann. His third wife, Etienne, might fit accusation of being a cutie, she was a professional model and a great fan of his, but not the screaming type! Three wives, the first marriage lasting only a very short time, the second lasting a long time through many trying and hard years and this lady became a close friend of Etienne and a loving 'Oma' to the children of his last marriage.

Have you attended any of is concerts? Have you witnessed, first-hand, screaming women? Let's stick to the facts, please, and if you are not familiar with them, read the biography by Richard Osborne and then come back here to tell us all about Herbert von Karajan's private life!

Dear Lis, I was there a few times at his concerts, and I can confirm the screaming beauties. So I am a first hand witness.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Lots of conductors are full of themselves, which doesn't mean their music-making isn't great. Just look at Micheal Tilson Thomas: every one of his recordings has a big picture of him and him only on the front cover.

[uffeviking]

I accept your word any time, dear Harry, but please tell me where those females you observed truly 'screaming cuties' - which implies images of rock concert, panty-tossing groupies - or merely part of the enthusiastically applauding audience? 

[Harry]

I accept your word any time, dear Harry, but please tell me where those females you observed truly 'screaming cuties' - which implies images of rock concert, panty-tossing groupies - or merely part of the enthusiastically applauding audience? 

Real groupies, screaming together when he came in and went out, waiting at the back entrance, for him to come out. The screaming could be heard for miles. Screaming cuties, for some I would have given my left ear.
But then I am a woman's man!

They were really no part of the applauding audience Lis!

[The new erato]

donwyn sums it up all for me - a tendency to make the conductor (and the sound he achieves) and not the music the focus of performance. In myriad ways. WHEN the approach works, as in some late romantic music where sound and subjectivity is the main point he can be very good - but too often the approach falls flat and the music is the worse for it. To sum: he ocassionally is very good and occasionally is very bad (so what else is new?) - and I dislike his approach and personality intensely.

[Harry]

donwyn sums it up all for me - a tendency to make the conductor (and the sound he achieves) and not the music the focus of performance. In myriad ways. WHEN the approach works, as in some late romantic music where sound and subjectivity is the main point he can be very good - but too often the approach falls flat and the music is the worse for it. To sum: he ocassionally is very good and occasionally is very bad (so what else is new?) - and I dislike his approach and personality intensely.

What has he done to you personally to get that treatment by you.
To often the music is the worse for it?
Another Karajan dislike mail.

[uffeviking]

OK, again, I accept your word and we established the fact of screaming cuties among his many admirers. Still left is the inaccurate statement: his picture in the tabloids with which [sic] ever young cutie he was married to!

Speaking of stagedoor demonstrations of affection: Nothing unusual at European opera houses. - I am not familiar with American opera house stage doors, so don't grump! - I have seen historical photos of prima donnas being carried on the shoulders of their fans and other such expressions of admiration! 

[JoshLilly]

I have nothing against Herb, but I never did understand why he seemed to confuse Mozart and Beethoven with Brahms or Mahler. He seemed under the bizarre impression that Mozart wrote orchestral pieces for 100-piece orchestras on modern instruments with strange late 1800s stylistic tricks. It sounds... well, my opinion is, horrible. I don't mind when Karajan conducted later stuff at all, though. I just wish I understood what he was trying to do to Mozart and Beethoven's music. Re-write it, I guess. I have nothing against him doing whatever he wanted, or with people liking it, that's fine and all, whatever floats everybody's boat is cool with me.

Personally, I have a hard time with what I could call "Mahlerised Mozart". Sorry to inject into a thread something on the negative side of things, I normally avoid doing that. But maybe I'd suggest, based on my own personal opinion, that maybe Karajan ought not be known for conducting stuff before 1830. 



"But then I am a woman's man!"

No need to be defensive of your manliness; we can tell by the way you use your walk.

[Bonehelm]

I have nothing against Herb, but I never did understand why he seemed to confuse Mozart and Beethoven with Brahms or Mahler. He seemed under the bizarre impression that Mozart wrote orchestral pieces for 100-piece orchestras on modern instruments with strange late 1800s stylistic tricks. It sounds... well, my opinion is, horrible. I don't mind when Karajan conducted later stuff at all, though. I just wish I understood what he was trying to do to Mozart and Beethoven's music. Re-write it, I guess. I have nothing against him doing whatever he wanted, or with people liking it, that's fine and all, whatever floats everybody's boat is cool with me.

Personally, I have a hard time with what I could call "Mahlerised Mozart". Sorry to inject into a thread something on the negative side of things, I normally avoid doing that. But maybe I'd suggest, based on my own personal opinion, that maybe Karajan ought not be known for conducting stuff before 1830. 





"But then I am a woman's man!"

No need to be defensive of your manliness; we can tell by the way you use your walk.

JoshLilly, who would you recommend for "appropriate" Mozart and Beethoven symphony recordings then? I find Bernstein more emotional, deep and moving. Maybe it's because he moves and jumps and sweats like a boxer on stage when he gives his performances.

[Harry]

I have nothing against Herb, but I never did understand why he seemed to confuse Mozart and Beethoven with Brahms or Mahler. He seemed under the bizarre impression that Mozart wrote orchestral pieces for 100-piece orchestras on modern instruments with strange late 1800s stylistic tricks. It sounds... well, my opinion is, horrible. I don't mind when Karajan conducted later stuff at all, though. I just wish I understood what he was trying to do to Mozart and Beethoven's music. Re-write it, I guess. I have nothing against him doing whatever he wanted, or with people liking it, that's fine and all, whatever floats everybody's boat is cool with me.

Personally, I have a hard time with what I could call "Mahlerised Mozart". Sorry to inject into a thread something on the negative side of things, I normally avoid doing that. But maybe I'd suggest, based on my own personal opinion, that maybe Karajan ought not be known for conducting stuff before 1830. 

If it comes to Mozart I agree for the most part, but confuse Beethoven with Brahms or Mahler is a statement that eludes me.
He was never under the bizare impression that Mozart was written for a hundred piece Orchestra, you just have to hear the Mozart Violin concertos with young Mutter. He rewrites nothing there. But again "Mahlerised Mozart" wow, that eludes me again.
That he should not approach composers from before 1830 is again a subject to be approached carefully.

[Harry]

"But then I am a woman's man!"

No need to be defensive of your manliness; we can tell by the way you use your walk.

That was meant for Lis my friend, and not for your amusement!

[The new erato]

What has he done to you personally to get that treatment by you.
To often the music is the worse for it?
Another Karajan dislike mail.

I said he was very good in some repertoire - that's probably the best you can say about ANY conductor. And that he was a dislikeable person in a business where there's a lot of such people don't mean I have it in for Herb. But I would feel that way about any person being vain enough to put an unearned  von  in his name.

[Florestan]

I wonder if ever there was another conductor as controversial as Karajan. It's either people love him or hate him, the latter ones being the most vocal.

For me, the whole thing is very simple: he had his own style. You may like it or not, but I believe no one can honestly say that he cheated the music and did everything he did just for publicity and money. I doubt very much that Berliner Philharmoniker, one of the best and most prestigious orchestras in the world, would have accepted for so many years a maverick as conductor.

I often hear criticism levelled at him on the basis of being too perfect and too polished (pretty much as in the case of Maurizio Pollini) --- as if perfection is something wrong and to be avoided.

I think that regardless of what one thinks personally a man who is admired, loved and revered by tons of serious and devoted music lovers around the world and who left such an important recorded legacy cannot be dismissed that easily.

So many of his detractors seem to have strong convictions about how a Beethoven or Brahms symphony should be done but I doubt they can succesfully conduct two children singing "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star".

My two cents, anyway.