The Karajan Legacy (recordings)

[Papageno]

I realised (hence "Ha"). I just took the chance to offer something useful to the thread, besides "no comment".

Yes, I get the impression that I'm a thread killer.  Every time I post something, the thread ends up dying not long after.

[DavidRoss]

Tempting.

[Coopmv]

Yes, I get the impression that I'm a thread killer.  Every time I post something, the thread ends up dying not long after.

You meant the thread got locked up?

[Coopmv]

Here are two DVD of Karajan I intend to get, in addition to his Memorial Concert ...

[mahler10th]

Fatuous? Next time just ask me darling.
His Ein Deutsches Requiem sounds like a salad of instruments crawling one over the other.  His Beethoven 5th is too fucking fast.  And all his performances aren't subtle (like Klemperer's - love that man) they sound like the orchestra is banging on the instruments.  But who knows, I might just be an imbecile who can't tell real music.  Someone enlighten me!

To enlighten you on his Beethoven 5th.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo
This is exactly the tempo Beethoven wrote for it.  It is not too fucking fast.  There are few conductors who have got it right.  Klemperer built musical Cathederals beautifully, but he was too fucking slow. 

[Henritus]

Fatuous? Next time just ask me darling.
His Ein Deutsches Requiem sounds like a salad of instruments crawling one over the other.  His Beethoven 5th is too fucking fast.  And all his performances aren't subtle (like Klemperer's - love that man) they sound like the orchestra is banging on the instruments.  But who knows, I might just be an imbecile who can't tell real music.  Someone enlighten me!

I thought we evaluate musicians based on their best works (and if one has enough of them he/she becomes a great one). And I don't think anyone here has suggested Karajan's version of Ein Deutsches requem as one of his best efforts.

[Valentino]

To enlighten you on his Beethoven 5th.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo
This is exactly the tempo Beethoven wrote for it.  It is not too fucking fast.  There are few conductors who have got it right.

Thanks, John. This is superb.

[Renfield]

An apology in advance is in order, as what I am about to ask would be cheeky even if I wasn't almost entirely inactive in the forum at present.

Still, word has reached my ears of the existence of 1) live Salzburg broadcasts of the complete Brahms symphonies with the BPO from 1983, and 2) a live broadcast, also from Salzburg, of Mahler's 9th Symphony from the early 80s, somewhere on the internet.

I am aware that both of these extremely valuable documents for Karajanophiles (!) have surfaced on Operashare, of which I am not a member; and potentially elsewhere, though no trace is left for me to follow, even after a diligent search.


Thus, should you either possess these broadcasts, or know of a way I could acquire them, I would be very much obliged indeed for your PM.

Thanks again!

[George]

I am aware that both of these extremely valuable documents for Karajanophiles (!) have surfaced on Operashare, of which I am not a member; and potentially elsewhere, though no trace is left for me to follow, even after a diligent search.

Why haven't you become a member of Operashare?

[Renfield]

Why haven't you become a member of Operashare?

In a phrase, I don't share Opera!

Or: I am not fond of joining groups I cannot contribute to, and am also not especially fond of 'closed circles'. I would join it, however, if I had a legitimate reason beyond 'I want a rare Karajan recording, but I can't give anything in return to justify my membership of your club'.


Hence my asking the members of a forum I do contribute to, albeit verbally (and/or verbosely).

[George]

In a phrase, I don't share Opera!

Or: I am not fond of joining groups I cannot contribute to, and am also not especially fond of 'closed circles'. I would join it, however, if I had a legitimate reason beyond 'I want a rare Karajan recording, but I can't give anything in return to justify my membership of your club'.

I wasn't aware that they require people to post things in order to be a member. Moreover, Operashare is just a name, I have read at rmcr that they share much more than just opera over there. 

[Renfield]

I wasn't aware that they require people to post things in order to be a member. Moreover, Operashare is just a name, I have read at rmcr that they share much more than just opera over there. 

Require, no. It's something of a matter of principle, I don't join things with share in them unless I intend to (and/or can) do just that.

The 'I don't share opera' comment was tongue-in-cheek.

[George]

Require, no. It's something of a matter of principle, I don't join things with share in them unless I intend to (and/or can) do just that.

I suspected that. It's a shame, for this creed you have adopted of course limits your ability to obtain many recordings that are readily available. I'm sure you know this already, though.

[Renfield]

I suspected that. It's a shame, for this creed you have adopted of course limits your ability to obtain many recordings that are readily available. I'm sure you know this already, though.

I am.

Though in either case, if what I have gathered is accurate, the recordings I mention above are not available at all right now.

Hence my primarily addressing the above to anyone who might possess them already.

[Renfield]

Slight 'redux' of my post in the Brian thread, but Testament are releasing a number of extremely interesting recordings later this year, among which are two more Karajan London concerts, with Beethoven's 6th, The Rite of Spring and another Heldenleben included.

I seem to recall hearing that Testament's owner is from Edinburgh - I wonder if I could get his address so as to go shake his hand!

(There's also a Bruckner 7th and 8th by Giulini that I will be hugely intrigued to hear, and a live Barbirolli Mahler 6th. )

[Novi]

(There's also a Bruckner 7th and 8th by Giulini that I will be hugely intrigued to hear, and a live Barbirolli Mahler 6th. )

I remember hearing this testament Barbirolli on the radio about 3 years ago. As I recall, and this quite vaguely , it was quite rough and not a little sloppy. I think I prefer the EMI studio, but I should, however, listen to the live recording more attentively for comparison.

[Drasko]

Quite a few Karajan live recordings have been relatively recently released on Audite, Orfeo, Testament, Japanese DG... I'm always curious to hear Karajan outside of studio manipulated conditions, so does anyone have any favorites worth hearing so far?

Live 1988 Tokyo Brahms' 1st on Japanese DG is very impressive performance, monumental in approach with orchestral sound size of a tsunami (really amazing) and recorded in good realistic concert perspective.   

[Renfield]

Live 1988 Tokyo Brahms' 1st on Japanese DG is very impressive performance, monumental in approach with orchestral sound size of a tsunami (really amazing) and recorded in good realistic concert perspective.   

This is one of the few official Karajan releases I'm missing (aside from various DG lollipop discs, and his Webern), and it's 'killing' me! If it's anything close to the almost primordial 1988 London performance released on Testament, I can see what you mean!

In fact, this is exactly why I so desperately want to hear the off-the-air 1983 Salzburg Brahms cycle. On paper, I can only think of a hypothetical release of his late-80s Berlin Brahms cycle (the one M attended in person, IIRC) that could top that.


Re the other live Karajan discs, I am unfortunately hard-pressed to promise I'll be able to do so within a day or two, this being something of an odd and frustrating summer, but I'll make an effort of finding a moment to sit down and think on them ASAP, for recommendations.

Needless to say, though, the aforementioned Testament disc with the live Brahms 1st and Verklärte Nacht is urgently recommended. And the other Testament, with Ein Heldenleben, and less so for the Beethoven 4th, is also what the Americans might call a 'keeper'.

[MishaK]

To enlighten you on his Beethoven 5th.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo
This is exactly the tempo Beethoven wrote for it.  It is not too fucking fast.  There are few conductors who have got it right.  Klemperer built musical Cathederals beautifully, but he was too fucking slow. 

Yes, that tempo is perfect. Unfortunately he turns the opening three repeated notes into triplets, which they aren't in the score. It's the hardest thing to do right in this symphony: the orchestra is all on edge about getting the first attack together because it's on an offbeat and so they inadvertently end up accenting the first note which is dreadful.

[MishaK]

Quite a few Karajan live recordings have been relatively recently released on Audite, Orfeo, Testament, Japanese DG... I'm always curious to hear Karajan outside of studio manipulated conditions, so does anyone have any favorites worth hearing so far?

Live 1988 Tokyo Brahms' 1st on Japanese DG is very impressive performance, monumental in approach with orchestral sound size of a tsunami (really amazing) and recorded in good realistic concert perspective.  

Where is that 1988 Brahms 1 available? I am curious about that.

There is a very interesting live Beethoven 9 from 1963 from the opening of the new Philharmonie by Scharoun which is very revealing as it was done around almost the same time as the famous studio version that made it into the classic 1963 DG cycle. It was issued as part of a 12 CD set for the orchestra's 125th anniversary but was also available individually for little money, but without booklet. Not sure if it is still available. The orchestra's playing is much grittier, more transparent and has less of that DG "wall of sound feeling". In a way a more intense experience - unfortunately marred only by an absolutely terrible Italian tenor in the final movement who can't sing or phrase German to save his life. The rest of the soloists are the same as on the DG studio version, IIRC.



Update: jpc has it for EUR 9.99: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Berlin-PO-Ein-Orchester-im-Takt-der-Zeit-Vol-6/hnum/7958431