The Karajan Legacy (recordings)

[Florestan]

what I've heard from him has never been bad, sometimes quite good, but generally just ok

That's your opinion, based on your tastes and personality and it's ok. But how can you prove what you say next

--and therefore certainly not as good as his partisans might have you believe.

other than appealling again to your tastes and personality, that is, having no certain proof at all?

For you, he was just ok. For others, he was just genius. Who's right and who's wrong?

[AB68]

That's your opinion, based on your tastes and personality and it's ok. But how can you prove what you say next

other than appealling again to your tastes and personality, that is, having no certain proof at all?

For you, he was just ok. For others, he was just genius. Who's right and who's wrong?

Exactly! It all comes down to personal taste.

[Bunny]

Well he had a hefty personality!

But never a hefty waistline.

[Greta]

I read the funniest Karajan quote in Alex Ross' recent New Yorker piece on Salonen...

Salonen said when he was young he was skeptical of the "hero" conductor:

"I very much disliked this image of Herbert von Karajan, riding a Harley-Davdson on an LP cover, conducting 'Ein Heldenleben'. I thought that was really bad. I still do, actually."

I thought Esa-Pekka was joking, but no...indeed, here's Fluffy not on a motorcycle, but definitely wearing a leather biker jacket...   



But is that really much worse than Salonen's Dracula cape on his Sibelius 5? Hmm... 



Hehe, I love both of their conducting, I think all, or a lot, of conductors are kind of "pretty boys" to an extent. All I care about is the music.

And yeah, Karajan is take it or leave it for me often. But on the works he's best on, it's almost transcendant to listen to, and especially to watch. Fascinating. Eyes closed the whole time, like he was in mystical commmunciation with the composer through the great beyond.  And even on his lesser stuff, it's still at least good.

[bhodges]

I just relistened to his recording of Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra (recorded in 1972) and it's quite subtle and refined (which probably is a "minus" for some  ).  Levine seems to bring out more details, but the overall spell Karajan casts is hard to dismiss.  He finds a sensuousness in the music that is very appealing.

--Bruce

[Rabin_Fan]

I think you nailed it, Lee!

Hey Don,
How is it going? The LvB Grumiaux/Haskil set are now out on Brilliant Classics and Decca. Have you bought either/both yet? Regards - Lee

[Don]

I read the funniest Karajan quote in Alex Ross' recent New Yorker piece on Salonen...

Saloenen said when he was young he was skeptical of the "hero" conductor:

"I very much disliked this image of Herbert von Karajan, riding a Harley-Davdson on an LP cover, conducting 'Ein Heldenleben'. I thought that was really bad. I still do, actually."

I thought Esa-Pekka was joking, but no...indeed, here's Fluffy not on a motorcycle, but definitely wearing a leather biker jacket...   



But is that really much worse than Salonen's Dracula cape on his Sibelius 5? Hmm... 

The Salonen is much worse - he looks like a pampered mama's boy.  At least Karajan looked masculine.

[George]

I just relistened to his recording of Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra (recorded in 1972) and it's quite subtle and refined (which probably is a "minus" for some  ).  Levine seems to bring out more details, but the overall spell Karajan casts is hard to dismiss.  He finds a sensuousness in the music that is very appealing.

--Bruce

Indeed, that one's excellent! 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hey Don,
How is it going? The LvB Grumiaux/Haskil set are now out on Brilliant Classics and Decca. Have you bought either/both yet? Regards - Lee

What's up, Lee!

I haven't taken the plunge yet but I've got my eye on the Decca release. I'm betting it's been remastered so I look forward to the improved sound (not that the Philips is bad...).

This is darn near a reference set so I'm thrilled to see it back in wide release. Hope it sticks around...

[George]

What's up, Lee!

I haven't taken the plunge yet but I've got my eye on the Decca release. I'm betting it's been remastered so I look forward to the improved sound (not that the Philips is bad...).

This is darn near a reference set so I'm thrilled to see it back in wide release. Hope it sticks around...

Hey, Don!

I saw both the Brilliant and the Decca today and snapped up the Decca! 

It has a 2007 production and copyright date, plus it says ADD=Analogue to Digital Remaster.

I'm popping in the Spring Sonata, so will report back. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hard feelings....nah, you are such a friendly guy, and with this discussion we mean no harm, its to clarify, well, if we can!

I'm sure we can at that!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hey, Don!

I saw both the Brilliant and the Decca today and snapped up the Decca! 

It has a 2007 production and copyright date, plus it says ADD=Analogue to Digital Remaster.

I'm popping in the Spring Sonata, so will report back. 

Cool, George!

I await your findings.

BTW, anything about a 24-bit remastering on the packaging?

[George]

Cool, George!

I await your findings.

BTW, anything about a 24-bit remastering on the packaging?

Nope. I listed all that is there.     And that is actually on the outside of the box, nothing to speak of inside. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

No problem, George! I imagine they gave it a proper going-over...

[Michel]

I think we need to differentiate between what is real and ideal; for if we take the hypothetical example of someone intensely disliking Karajan, it is a moot point when it comes to opera, in the same way as it is with Solti, purely because of the casts they directed. When you have Nilsson, London et al under your baton, or a young Anne sophie mutter, or rostropovich, our ideal preferences over conductor become irrelevant and impotent.

For the critic, this may be more due to his position of power in international music rather than his talent, but the fact remains that he directed one of the best orchestras in the world for several decades and worked with some of the greatest soloists there have ever been. This immutable fact means that whatever our opinions, many of his recordings are highly recommendable. Lets list a few:

His recordings with Janowitz, such as Four Last Songs
His recordings with Ghiaurov, such as the fantastic 1970 performance of Don Giovanni
His recordings with Schwarzkopf, such as Ariadne auf Naxos
His recordings with Fournier or Rostropovich, such as Don Quixote
His recordings with the plethora of German singers in classic recordings , such as Die Meistersinger Von Nurnberg

The list goes on, as it does with any great conductor.

But my argument goes deeper, for I believe it is a mere prejudice to suggest that Karajan glosses over music; it is not as though he does so much that it makes detail indistinguishable, and when did it become important, objectively, to convey every miniature detail? Doing the opposite is an equal if not greater error, certainly in some recordings; being just a heap of entangled detail, with no weaving of the music into a coherent "whole". Some of the greatest conductors had the most audacious goals and interesting outlooks, be it Furtwangler, Toscanini or Karajan, and these personal stamps make for great listening experiences.

I also believe this is due to the fact that, sometimes, we as fans not admitting we are hedonists. Must we sit upright with our HIP recordings, objectively and in our ivory tower, with no sense of fun - no sense of what we are doing is ultimately because we enjoy it, and what we are listening to sounds nice?

I refer of course to Karajan soundscape that, in some recordings, create the most wonderful listening experience. Although I am not a fan of his Bruckner 8, which I do believe "glosses" too much, it is an excellent example of Karajan's ability to make a sound generally unequalled on record in its beauty. The same also applies in his utterly convincing account of Sibelius 4, which remains the greatest, in my view, on record, because of his fabulous sense of control, profundity, darkness and power that this piece requires.

The other common criticisms in a similar vein to suggesting we are all sober and intelligent music lovers, not hedonists, are the accusations that Karajan is a playboy, someone obsessed with commercial considerations and a vulgar megalomaniac. But these are categorically false. My personal view that in a subculture more than any other, full of geeks, virgins, the bullied, ugly and flat-footed, Karajan is simply a man so superior, in his looks, intelligence and status to most of us that the legitimacy in listening to Schumann's solo piano music, and telling ourselves it is OK to be a loser, erode away. For here is a man who has got it everything and achieved it all. I believe this crude pseudo psychological explanation goes some way to suggest why people go about "hating" Wagner, too. We seem to dislike those with the greatest ambitions.

As I elluded to earlier, it seems that any great conductor and any great composer gets mud slung at them in this way if they are controversial in some of their approaches. We could make a long list of Geniuses across the artistic spectrum who have strange personalities or illusions of grandeur, but it is often precisely these qualities that create profound masterpieces, since you need this attitude and confidence in what you are doing is right or worthwhile, else they would be overcome with stasis and doubt. What else do you use for fuel as an artist? It defeats the object of creating the art if you believe you have nothing to say - you would not have done it in the first place.

Like Toscanini before him critics make actual factual errors when discussing him (such as EVERYTHING was done at breakneck speed in Toscanini's case), and forget the intense love he felt for music. Why does a man who doesn't love music ride 200 miles on his bike to hear Toscanini conduct, for example? Not because he is a megalomaniac, certainly, but because he appreciated greatness, and wanted to be great. If these desires didn't exist, we would never have any art to enjoy.

I appreciate Karajan is not to everyone's taste, but then who is? I like HIP and Karajan. I like Furtwangler and Hogwood - why other people can't appreciate the differences without slinging mud is beyond me. And that is why I think people are simply jealous of Karajan, going about the world democratizing music, taking away its elitist status through mass distribution of recording material -- bringing back memories of the days in school when the popular boy got all the girls, and all you had was your little violin.

Karajan simply takes away all our little violins.

[Florestan]

My personal view that in a subculture more than any other, full of geeks, virgins, the bullied, ugly and flat-footed, Karajan is simply a man so superior, in his looks, intelligence and status to most of us that the legitimacy in listening to Schumann's solo piano music, and telling ourselves it is OK to be a loser, erode away.

I'm afraid I don't understand it. Do you suggest that Schumann's solo piano music is either loser or for losers or both?

[Grazioso]

That's your opinion, based on your tastes and personality and it's ok. But how can you prove what you say next

other than appealling again to your tastes and personality, that is, having no certain proof at all?

For you, he was just ok. For others, he was just genius. Who's right and who's wrong?

Obviously it's personal opinion, but it's opinion based on many years of listening, not on what I may or may not think of HvK as a person. (I know little about that and care less.)

The other common criticisms in a similar vein to suggesting we are all sober and intelligent music lovers, not hedonists, are the accusations that Karajan is a playboy, someone obsessed with commercial considerations and a vulgar megalomaniac. But these are categorically false. My personal view that in a subculture more than any other, full of geeks, virgins, the bullied, ugly and flat-footed, Karajan is simply a man so superior, in his looks, intelligence and status to most of us that the legitimacy in listening to Schumann's solo piano music, and telling ourselves it is OK to be a loser, erode away. For here is a man who has got it everything and achieved it all. I believe this crude pseudo psychological explanation goes some way to suggest why people go about "hating" Wagner, too. We seem to dislike those with the greatest ambitions.

I just don't much like the way he typically conducts.

Regarding cult-of-Karajan covers, which DG loves so much, they even have one of him sleepwalking in his pajamas

[Bach Man]

The other common criticisms in a similar vein to suggesting we are all sober and intelligent music lovers, not hedonists, are the accusations that Karajan is a playboy, someone obsessed with commercial considerations and a vulgar megalomaniac. But these are categorically false. My personal view that in a subculture more than any other, full of geeks, virgins, the bullied, ugly and flat-footed, Karajan is simply a man so superior, in his looks, intelligence and status to most of us that the legitimacy in listening to Schumann's solo piano music, and telling ourselves it is OK to be a loser, erode away. For here is a man who has got it everything and achieved it all. I believe this crude pseudo psychological explanation goes some way to suggest why people go about "hating" Wagner, too. We seem to dislike those with the greatest ambitions.

We don't seem to dislike Beethoven. But he had a unique talent in addition to his ambitions. On the other hand Karajan's talent did not match the size of his public image. For example, I find more of lasting value in the work of his less charismatic contemporary Karl Böhm.

[Bruckner is God]

What a bizarre discussion 

[uffeviking]

I think we need to differentiate between what is real and ideal;

Great post, food for thought and very welcome contribution to better understanding of von Karajan, the musician! Yesterday I listened to his conducting of Shostakoviches Symphony No. 10, really listened, not background noise while defrosting the freezer, and again heard the reason for the admiration, the respect, he received by classical music lover, experts and novices alike.

I repeat posting the screen shot I took of von Karajan and Rostropovich performing Strauss's Don Quixote. Notice Slava looking up to the conductor, who has his eyes closed, and both displaying an expression of communication with each other.