The Karajan Legacy (recordings)

[eyeresist]

I will dare say that I liked the direction in those two specific filmed concerts. I'm not sure what you'd have wanted instead.

Something a bit less stylised, with more broad shots of the orchestra. And a bit less of Herbert too, much as I admire his hair 

[Drasko]

Could be interesting:

HERBERT VON KARAJAN
Tokyo Last Concert 1988
UMUSIC JAPAN are very proud to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the birth of Herbert von Karajan in 2008 with special releases including, for the very first time ever, Tokyo Last Concert 1988.
The tape is the one live recorded in Suntory Hall on May 5, 1988. It is a concert of the final day of the last Japanese tour that Karajan did.
As for this tape, Umusic Japan is mastering in a good sound in the Hanover technology(DGG).
The excellent performance that people memorize gives us big impression again through 20 years.
Mozart: Symphony No. 39, K. 543
Brahms: Symphony No. 1, op. 68
BERLINER PHILHARMONIKER
HERBERT VON KARAJAN, conductor
Live Recording: 05/05/1988, Suntory Hall, Tokyo, Japan

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2691180

[Renfield]

Could be interesting:



http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2691180

Yes indeed!

And there even seem to be more of those. Will they reach the West, I wonder, or will I import?


Incidentally, I recently picked up a very-likely-valid rumour that the Karajan box sets due out from DG this August will be the 70's Beethoven cycle (as it was in that dreadful pink box), the Bruckner cycle, the 70's Brahms cycle plus Haydn Variations and a couple of overtures, and the Mendelssohn cycle. If that turns out to be "on the money", I'm very hopeful we'll get new remasterings.

And I'd say especially for the Bruckner and Brahms (despite DG's best efforts on the latter), that will be fantastic news!

Edit: But now I see there's a limited edition box set "wave" circulating in Japan that could also be the one coming to us. But that has the 80's Brahms cycle, and the Mahler Symphonies/Lieder instead of Beethoven, so perhaps the rumour I heard was only half-correct.

Or we're getting different box sets than they are.

Edit 2: Ah, the Haydn Variations are definitely from the 80's (which explains why I didn't know they existed), so the Brahms is very probably the 80's cycle, too. Not that I mind, it's anyway my favourite of the three on DG.

[M forever]

Incidentally, I recently picked up a very-likely-valid rumour that the Karajan box sets due out from DG this August will be the 70's Beethoven cycle (as it was in that dreadful pink box), the Bruckner cycle, the 70's Brahms cycle plus Haydn Variations and a couple of overtures, and the Mendelssohn cycle. If that turns out to be "on the money", I'm very hopeful we'll get new remasterings.

Well, don't get too excited just yet, "remastered" is the hollowest and most often abused buzzword in the classical recordings business these days. A lot of "remastered" stuff is just a new transfer, sometimes a little EQed and polished up, so while that technically is a "remastering", a preparation of a new master, that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds much different and/or better. Sometimes it does, but a lot of "remastered" stuff really doesn't. But people get very excited when they hear that, so I guess the marketing part of that strategy works.

Could be interesting:



http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2691180

M has that. It is great. The sound is very good, much more "natural" and less "doctored" than the DG studio recordings from the same era, plus there is a degree of spontaneity and musical tension in the performance I miss from the studio one which is immaculately, and rather mercilessly executed. The kind of "cold perfection" Karajan is sometimes accused of. This sounds distinctly more like what I heard in concert in Berlin (IIRC, that was the year before, 1987, or maybe 1986) and it gives you a very good idea what that was like. Not that the studio recordings of the Brahms symphonies from the 80s are bad at all. They are better recorded than a lot of the other stuff they did in that period, but again, there is just more music going on in this live recording and the sound is a few degrees more natural, so anyone who wants to know about Karajan should check it out.

Here is a little preview for all my good friends here, the third movement of the Brahms symphony: http://tinyurl.com/3rzyep

[Renfield]

Well, don't get too excited just yet, "remastered" is the hollowest and most often abused buzzword in the classical recordings business these days. A lot of "remastered" stuff is just a new transfer, sometimes a little EQed and polished up, so while that technically is a "remastering", a preparation of a new master, that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds much different and/or better. Sometimes it does, but a lot of "remastered" stuff really doesn't. But people get very excited when they hear that, so I guess the marketing part of that strategy works.

To be honest, any new perspective on the sound will be welcome, as far as I'm concerned; you could say it's more the novelty that excites me, the feeling of maybe hearing the recordings from a slightly different "point of view".

Otherwise, it's probably hyperbole to say the current sound of those recordings is anything bad. But I always hope for better. And since in recordings like the Mutter Beethoven concerto they did do a great job (to my ears), I'm willing to risk disappointment.


Thank you for the Brahms sample.

[Bogey]

Thought I would stick this here:

How does the sound of the earlier vinyl pressings of the Karajan recordings compare with the re-released cd efforts?  Is the sound on the vinyl closer to the actual "sound" that Karajan and the BPO (in most cases) actually produced?  Was there more engineering on the cds than on the vinyl?  Or, do both miss the mark in many cases?

[Harry]

Thought I would stick this here:

How does the sound of the earlier vinyl pressings of the Karajan recordings compare with the re-released cd efforts?  Is the sound on the vinyl closer to the actual "sound" that Karajan and the BPO (in most cases) actually produced?  Was there more engineering on the cds than on the vinyl?  Or, do both miss the mark in many cases?

You cannot compare the vinyl sound with the cd sound. With vinyl so many things come in play that have nothing to do with the actual recordings, but which are shortcomings of technical nature. One may like the sound of vinyl more as the digital sound, but that is purely personal. I still have all the vinyl recordings from Karajan, and my opinion is that all cd's so far are closer to the truth of the recording as the vinyl.
But you are indeed missing the mark in many cases Bill.
This is a question of personal taste.

[M forever]

How close certain recordings come to the "original" is not a question of personal taste, but of informed hearing. Funny that the guy who preaches high end equipent with NASA grade cabling doesn't know that. What individual listeners like is a matter of personal taste. But that's not what Bogey asked.

The aswer to the question however is not simple.Some recordings from the analog era sound rather like the "real" thing, some from the digital era, too, but then you also have a lot of recordings from all eras which sound very artificial and "doctored". Karajan believed that since recordings can not fully reproduce the sound of an orchestra - which he was right about of course -, recordings had to satisfy a completely different listening experience at home, and they doctored around with the sound massively. Which is very unfortunate. Some recordings both from the analog and the digital ear still capture the sound of the orchestra as it really was rather faithfully though. Among these are the EMI Bruckner 4, some of th Sibelius stuff on EMI, the DG Bruckner 5 and live Mahler 9. The 1977 Beethoven cycle, although a little artificially sweetened and smoothed, too, also comes fairly close to what that sounded like live. Certainly much closer than the early-80s Beethoven cycle which sounds just nasty. I was in most of the concerts they played around that time, and they sounded much more like they did in the 1977 recordings. The CDs that recently came out in Japan of live concerts in Tokyo 1988 - his last concerts in Japan - also come fairly close to giving a realistic impression of what the "real thing" was like.

[scarpia]

Thought I would stick this here:

How does the sound of the earlier vinyl pressings of the Karajan recordings compare with the re-released cd efforts?  Is the sound on the vinyl closer to the actual "sound" that Karajan and the BPO (in most cases) actually produced?  Was there more engineering on the cds than on the vinyl?  Or, do both miss the mark in many cases?

Although I don't think there is anything intrinsically superior about the LP format there are instances where the CD sounds worse.  Mainly because the label is so desperate to make the CD sound better that they mess with the equalization.

Some recordings from the analog era sound rather like the "real" thing, some from the digital era, too, but then you also have a lot of recordings from all eras which sound very artificial and "doctored". Karajan believed that since recordings can not fully reproduce the sound of an orchestra - which he was right about of course -, recordings had to satisfy a completely different listening experience at home, and they doctored around with the sound massively. Which is very unfortunate.

One of the ones that is most irritating to me is the 70's DG recording of Brahms Symphony #1.  The finale has a prominent horn solo, and part of the beauty of it is that this one instrument becomes the center of attention while playing from the back of the orchestra with its bell pointed downward and away from the audience, a very atmospheric sound.  In this particular recording they suddenly shift the recording balances to make it sound like a horn concerto.  Or worse, like a horn player popped up in the seat in front of you and started playing the horn with the bell in your face.  Just ruins it.

[eyeresist]

One of the ones that is most irritating to me is the 70's DG recording of Brahms Symphony #1.  The finale has a prominent horn solo, and part of the beauty of it is that this one instrument becomes the center of attention while playing from the back of the orchestra with its bell pointed downward and away from the audience, a very atmospheric sound.  In this particular recording they suddenly shift the recording balances to make it sound like a horn concerto.  Or worse, like a horn player popped up in the seat in front of you and started playing the horn with the bell in your face.  Just ruins it.

And of course there's the wonderful gong solo in Prokofiev 5.


But considering the unnatural soundstage of most concerto recordings, perhaps I'm the one with no sense of proportion. 

[Renfield]

There. I tried to avoid it, I succeeded in avoiding it for more than a year of contribution(?) to the forum, but if there's going to be a Richter thread and a Toscanini thread, and an X thread and a Y thread, there deserves to be a general Karajan thread.

Not the top 10, not the top Beethoven, not the "why you hate/love Karajan", but a thread to discuss and debate his recorded legacy.


Of course, I was specifically prompted to create the thread by the present discussion in "What are you listening to?" about his Beethoven cycles, and this would be a lovely theme to kick this off with; just don't take it as a thread only about Karajan's Beethoven. Or about Karajan's best recordings, for that matter! I'd be delighted if we could also discuss his bad recordings: they are, after all, also part of the "legacy".

The floor is yours, ladies and gentlemen.

[Bulldog]

There. I tried to avoid it, I succeeded in avoiding it for more than a year of contribution(?) to the forum, but if there's going to be a Richter thread and a Toscanini thread, and an X thread and a Y thread, there deserves to be a general Karajan thread.

Since Karajan comes up on the board multiple times every day, I think he's already receiving as much as he deserves.  But I realize he's a legend to some folks, so carry on. 

[Renfield]

Since Karajan comes up on the board multiple times every day, I think he's already receiving as much as he deserves.  But I realize he's a legend to some folks, so carry on. 

And that's part of why I thought (and think) a 'main' thread is useful, to compile all the stray discussions.

Posting here doesn't imply liking Karajan, or his music. (Though obviously I do, both.)

[Bulldog]

And that's part of why I thought (and think) a 'main' thread is useful, to compile all the stray discussions.

Like rounding up the stray dogs.

[Renfield]

Like rounding up the stray dogs.

Edit: Right, so that there's not two Karajan threads on top of the Recordings forum list, there is a present discussion on the Beethoven cycles here.

(So I'll stop bumping this thread until needed.)

[Herman]

And that's part of why I thought (and think) a 'main' thread is useful, to compile all the stray discussions.

It won't work that way. Part of the Karajan fan psychosis is wanting to start your own daily Karajan threads, ideally about which one of his Beethoven iterations is best / the greatest / your favorite.

[jwinter]

It won't work that way. Part of the Karajan fan psychosis is wanting to start your own daily Karajan threads, ideally about which one of his Beethoven iterations is best / the greatest / your favorite.

Um... err... [backs slowly out of the thread]

[Renfield]

It won't work that way. Part of the Karajan fan psychosis is wanting to start your own daily Karajan threads, ideally about which one of his Beethoven iterations is best / the greatest / your favorite.

Well, let's kill that tendency with fire, then.

Edit: Blast, I said I wouldn't bump it.

[imperfection]

He's been consistently one of my most loved conductors. Most of his output just sounds right, maybe not in an idiomatic way but the orchestral sound he comes up with just satisfies me very much every time. He seems to know just when to back off, when to let loose the beasts (which are his amazing BPO musicians) and when to conjure up the most sensuous sonorities possibly audible by human ears. When he's gentle, he creams your face; when he's aggressive, he thrills you more than a roller coaster ride. I know many interpreters that are experts of treating music in both of those categories, but Karajan has the best of both worlds.

That last comment also applies to his successful (IMO) merging of the styles of two other of my favourite conductors, Toscanini and Furtwangler.

[DavidRoss]

When it comes to symphonic music, Karajan was almost second to none in the latter half of the 20th century.

Almost...except, perhaps, for:
Abbado
Barbirolli
Beecham
Berglund
Bernstein
Blomstedt
Böhm
Boulez
Boult
Chailly
Davis
Dorati
Fischer
Furtwängler
Gardiner
Gergiev
Giulini
Haitink
Harnoncourt
Jacobs
Jansons
Jochum
Kempe
Kertész
Kleiber
Klemperer, Otto
Klemperer
Kondrashin
Koussevitsky
Kubelik
Levine
Maazel
MacKerras
Mahler
Markevitch
Mravinsky
Ormandy
Pappano
Rozhdestvensky
Salonen
Sanderling
Segerstam
Sinopoli
Solti
Strauss
Szell
Tilson Thomas
Toscanini
Vänskä
Wand
Zinman
and doubtless a couple of dozen more I've neglected to mention.