Author Topic: 'An Appalling Report'  (Read 41261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22323
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #440 on: May 31, 2009, 10:13:38 PM »
Do you agree ?

Yes, I do. My only contention is that the academic abiltiy cannot be measured at such an early age as six, when the child hasn't even begin to learn anything academical. I stand by my point: a fair assessment can be made after finishing the secondary school.
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #441 on: June 08, 2009, 06:19:14 PM »
Andrei,

Yes, I do


But the consensus of most respondents to that report was that mixed ability teaching does nobody any good. Well how is that much different from what Charles Murray was advocating in his book  Real Education  and from which I cited passages earlier in this thread ? You seemed to disagree with much of it. 

From The Book Review:

Charles Murray believes our educational system's failures stem from the fundamental lie that every child can be anything he or she wants and that such educational romanticism prevents progress. Four simple truths, he asserts, would prove better:

(1) scholastic ability varies, as all comparative measurements of it attest; (2) half of all children are and must be below average in scholastic aptitude; (3) too many are going to college; (4) America’s future depends on the education of the most gifted.

Murray takes care with his first point, discussing various types of abilities instead of the oft-maligned I.Q. measure; however, he does believe that test scores reflect ability. He argues that there are only a limited number of academically gifted people and these are America's future leaders, that only this elite can enjoy college productively and that the nongifted shouldn't be channeled by their high school counselors into training for that college chimera, which wouldn't make them happy anyway. Further, he argues, if the Educational Testing Service created certification tests covering what employers want applicants to know, these would become the gold standard for applicants, rather than college degrees.

Anticipating that these four points will be seen as justifying social elitism, Murray emphasizes rigor in the demands made of the gifted and opines that the preponderance of the gifted aren’t now in any elite. Furthermore, he advocates reducing the market importance of the BA degree while raising the value of nonscholastic educational attainment, such as the certifications of skilled trades and performance capabilities. An argument only ideologues and special interests should despise.

***
 

Offline c#minor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 320
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #442 on: June 10, 2009, 10:49:34 AM »
We live in an information based society. College degrees are skilled trade degrees. I think Murray is romanticizing college. College is not anything special anymore. College is the norm, the average. To pass and graduate shows an aptitude for working in the real world. Also if you get employed in the area which you got your degree in you have education. It is true that not every child can be anything he or she wants, but college does not assert this, society does. Anyway why is it bad to have an "over educated" society. The errors of the educational system do not lie in the fact that college attendance is up, or that college is the norm, it is the lack of opportunities for those with unconventional learning skills. Maybe we need to rethink the way we educate inside the classroom, not tear down the classroom.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22323
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #443 on: June 10, 2009, 11:22:55 AM »
We live in an information based society. College degrees are skilled trade degrees. I think Murray is romanticizing college. College is not anything special anymore. College is the norm, the average. To pass and graduate shows an aptitude for working in the real world. Also if you get employed in the area which you got your degree in you have education. It is true that not every child can be anything he or she wants, but college does not assert this, society does. Anyway why is it bad to have an "over educated" society. The errors of the educational system do not lie in the fact that college attendance is up, or that college is the norm, it is the lack of opportunities for those with unconventional learning skills. Maybe we need to rethink the way we educate inside the classroom, not tear down the classroom.

Yes, agreed.
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #444 on: June 10, 2009, 11:31:33 AM »
Definitely redeemed this thread, c# minor, thank you!

Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #445 on: June 10, 2009, 12:07:35 PM »
To pass and graduate college shows an aptitude for working in the real world.

Does it really ?

Why is it then that so many employers today complain about the lack of even basic writing, analytical, and quantitative skills among their workers ?


Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #446 on: June 10, 2009, 12:23:20 PM »

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22323
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #447 on: June 10, 2009, 10:34:16 PM »
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #448 on: June 11, 2009, 02:05:14 AM »
Andrei,

Could you please refresh my mind about that post of mine? I can't recall it.

Yes, here it is:

Scroll down just a bit; it's the third post from the top.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9582.280.html

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22323
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #449 on: June 11, 2009, 02:20:31 AM »
Andrei,

Yes, here it is:

Scroll down just a bit; it's the third post from the top.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9582.280.html

Thanks. So what's your question again?
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #450 on: June 11, 2009, 02:24:54 AM »
Thanks. So what's your question again?

Is Marty Nemko still mostly right ?

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22323
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #451 on: June 11, 2009, 02:28:16 AM »
"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one-half that you see." - Edgar Allan Poe

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #452 on: June 11, 2009, 02:43:46 AM »
That article's unique prettiness, half-lit harmonies and restful, unassuming, carefree mood at the end continuously enthrall me.

Offline PSmith08

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1231
  • Some guy on the internet.
  • Location: Indiana
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #453 on: June 11, 2009, 03:25:32 AM »
That article's unique prettiness, half-lit harmonies and restful, unassuming, carefree mood at the end continuously enthrall me.

Can you really believe that that article has half-lit harmonies? What about the three-quarter lit harmonies?

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #454 on: June 11, 2009, 03:47:13 AM »
Can you really believe that that article has half-lit harmonies? What about the three-quarter lit harmonies?

Nah, too dim for three-quarter.

Homo Aestheticus

  • Guest
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #455 on: June 11, 2009, 09:49:30 AM »
Patrick and Karl,

Mr. Nemko's message is badly needed today, at least here in the United States..... He makes so many good points in that article.

Offline PSmith08

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1231
  • Some guy on the internet.
  • Location: Indiana
Re: 'An Appalling Report'
« Reply #456 on: June 11, 2009, 10:02:59 AM »
Patrick and Karl,

Mr. Nemko's message is badly needed today, at least here in the United States..... He makes so many good points in that article.

In my experience, unless you have a reason to care about issues like this, there are far more important issues confronting the Republic than too many people going to college.