'An Appalling Report'

[PSmith08]

Patrick,

But why is it that when I read Charles Murray´ Real Education  or even some sections of the The Bell Curve it rings so true of my own academic experiences ?  It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.   (However, RE is a better book)

Whether or not it makes sense to you or anyone does not make it good science. The same thing goes for whether or not your subjective experiences conform to the theories proposed. They are, i.e., the theories, simply put, pop-science gobbledygook of the first order for the Reader's Digest set. I, for one, think there's a place for pseudo-science, but I don't think one should be allowed to get by with it at the margins of any field of study. When charting new territory, there is something to be said for intelligent, scrupulous, and punctiliously correct science.

This ain't it.

[Josquin des Prez]

It's a nice, comforting idea to be able to quantify intellectual ability, but it's crap science. Indeed, it bears such little resemblance to science that it might as well be called "a piquant blend of phrenology, numerology, and soothsaying."

Actually, whatever it is that IQ tests measure, it is a pretty consistent value when it comes to predicting academic and sometimes economic achievement. How is that unscientific?

[PSmith08]

Actually, whatever it is that IQ tests measur[e], it is a pretty consistent value when it comes to predicting academic and sometimes economic achievement. How is that unscientific?

I think you're rather overstating the predictive value, statistically speaking, but you might have a point. Until, of course, you remember that you're arguing that a measurement of something, without ever knowing what you're measuring, is a predictor (of some value) of a couple of things.

[Josquin des Prez]

Until, of course, you remember that you're arguing that a measurement of something, without ever knowing what you're measuring, is a predictor (of some value) of a couple of things.

Except of course we do know what IQ is measuring, it's just not clear how much of it pertains to the totality of what we define as "intelligence". Ultimately, it seems to me that it is you who's trying to understate the concept of g.

[PSmith08]

Except of course we do know what IQ is measuring, it's just not clear how much of it pertains to the totality of what we define as "intelligence". Ultimately, it seems to me that it is you who's trying to understate the concept of g.

I do tend to understate social-science mumbo-jumbo, just I tend to deprecate certain theories in physics that are so mathematically complex as to be untenable. There is, of course, some physical evidence for g, which cannot be said for some concepts in modern physics. At the same time, there is something highly suspect -- along many of the same lines as the mathematically derived "particles" so currently in vogue -- about something that is, being uncharitable, rather an abstraction or, being more charitable, derived from its "accidents."

[Homo Aestheticus]

Actually, whatever it is that IQ tests measure, it is a pretty consistent value when it comes to predicting academic achievement.

I believe that it is, too.  But why I wonder does our culture want to continue sweeping this under the rug ?

Why does our culture place so much faith in  self-discipline and motivation  in predicting academic success ?

[lisa needs braces]

Patrick,

I definitely consider myself below average in intellectual/academic ability. In retrospect, I feel very angry that my teachers in elementary, middle and high school never really spoke up about my total inability to ever keep pace and instead gave me passing grades probably because I was very quiet/polite. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have benefitted greatly from the kind of early and rigorous testing of ability that Murray advocates.

Inferiority complex, thy name is Eric!

[Homo Aestheticus]

Inferiority complex, thy name is Eric!

I am often overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy and miserableness, yes.

Let me just say that the intellectually gifted must be told explicitly, forcefully and repeatedly that their talent is a gift that they have done nothing to deserve. They are not superior human beings, but very, very lucky ones.

They should feel humbled by their good luck.

   

[greg]

Still, talent isn't everything. Think of child prodigies that play piano or something you hear about that end up not really going anywhere. Then think about those who just put in hard work day after day until they did what they had to. Talent + hard work is the best, but I don't see how you can't do stuff nearly anyone else can without hard work.
Maybe the reason you had trouble "keeping pace" had more to do with your learning style. I know I find it harder to understand a lecture than to read about a subject and then put it into practice.

[Joe_Campbell]

I agree with Greg. Case in point: Benjamin Grosvenor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FJeOaRjZaE&feature=related
Two Scarlatti Sonatas + Balakirev's Lark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL8rPM3Kl2w&feature=related
Carl Vine - 5 Bagatelles (I think you'll like this one a lot Greg)

He's amazing at 12 years old, but I watched a bio on him, and he's been playing since 7 and practices at least 6 hours a day 6 days/week. I dunno, maybe all that practice makes him a 'non-authentic' prodigy/genius or whatever, but don't see why...

[Homo Aestheticus]

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, G$ and J.

[greg]

I agree with Greg. Case in point: Benjamin Grosvenor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FJeOaRjZaE&feature=related
Two Scarlatti Sonatas + Balakirev's Lark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL8rPM3Kl2w&feature=related
Carl Vine - 5 Bagatelles (I think you'll like this one a lot Greg)

He's amazing at 12 years old, but I watched a bio on him, and he's been playing since 7 and practices at least 6 hours a day 6 days/week. I dunno, maybe all that practice makes him a 'non-authentic' prodigy/genius or whatever, but don't see why...

Man, I should get a complete set of Scarlatti sonatas one day. I liked what I've heard so far.
(even though that has nothing to do with our discussion) hehe

[Joe_Campbell]

It's a music forum. IMO, I think that any classical music performance easily bypasses thread topic constraints.

PS How about that Carl Vine? I had never heard of him until this video!

[Florestan]

I am often overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy and miserableness, yes.

What you lack is not intelligence, but confidence and a proper focus. It's no wonder that existentialism and agnosticism appeal so strong to you, since you can use them to justify and rationalize your situation; but they will only make it worse. What you need is not theories about life, but life itself.

[greg]

It's a music forum. IMO, I think that any classical music performance easily bypasses thread topic constraints.

PS How about that Carl Vine? I had never heard of him until this video!

Both links say Benjamin Grosvenor. Is he in one of the videos?

[Joe_Campbell]

Both links say Benjamin Grosvenor. Is he in one of the videos?

No...he's the one who wrote the 5 Bagatelles in the 2nd video.

[greg]

No...he's the one who wrote the 5 Bagatelles in the 2nd video.

I've read about him in a book I have. It says he's Australian, and he wrote the score to the closing ceremony of the 1996 Olympic games.

You're right- I did like them!   

[Homo Aestheticus]

What you lack is not intelligence, but confidence and a proper focus.

Thank you, Florestan.   

Let´s go back to the original topic for a moment.

O.k., so we have not been able to define intellectual ability, but in your opinion how many people are intellectually qualified to cope with college-level material in the core disciplines of either the arts or the sciences, not how many can  survive  four years at today´s colleges, shop for easy courses and walk away with diplomas.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn´t real college-level material hard ? 

[Bulldog]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn´t real college-level material hard ? 

I didn't find it hard.  Did you have trouble?

[greg]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn´t real college-level material hard ? 

Wouldn't that completely depend on what it is and how much of it you already know?