'An Appalling Report'

[Florestan]

Thank you, Florestan.   

Don't mention. I was stating an obvious fact.

Let´s go back to the original topic for a moment.

O.k., so we have not been able to define intellectual ability, but in your opinion how many people are intellectually qualified to cope with college-level material in the core disciplines of either the arts or the sciences[...]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn´t real college-level material hard ? 

How many? I don't know, honestly. It depends on too much variables.

Is college-level material hard? Again, I don't know. It also depends on too much variables.

This is why I am strongly opposed to enforcing an universal, compulsory, standardized and unique schooling system.  

[PSmith08]

Wouldn't that completely depend on what it is and how much of it you already know?

You have to understand that Eric is referring to a very narrowly defined set of subjects and readings. The theories advanced are the very apotheosis, the summa, even, of the notions that education should be a great books course and that you are what nature made you.

In other words, we're still a few hundred years off from even 19th-century notions of education.

That's what's so risible about this current course of "discussion." Science will prove who is superior and who isn't, so to speak, and we can give the glorious intellectual overlords the Great Authors of Western Civilization that they might think deep thoughts and hold great ideas while giving the plebs enough to make them productive members of society. I am, admittedly, being hyperbolic, but not by much. When these pernicious, antediluvian, and specious ideas are revealed in their fullness and considered for what they are, there are some nasty consequences implicit.

There's an intelligent debate to be had over this subject, but, since I don't like making value judgments, I'll leave it at that.

[Homo Aestheticus]

I didn't find it hard.  Did you have trouble?

Don,

I barely made it out of high school back in 1990.

Honestly.

[Homo Aestheticus]

When these pernicious, antediluvian, and specious ideas are revealed in their fullness and considered for what they are, there are some nasty consequences implicit.

Patrick,

We know that Mother Nature is no egalitarian when it comes to mental ability but what are those ´nasty consequences´?

How are the lives of the less intellectually capable now threatened ?

[Homo Aestheticus]

Florestan,

This is why I am strongly opposed to enforcing an universal, compulsory, standardized and unique schooling system.

Interesting. Could you elaborate ?

Are you saying that all classroom based teaching should stop ?

This reminds me of something I read a while ago.

We are heading to an era in which schooling will change profoundly. The teacher will not be the talking head at the front of the classroom, but the expert on students' learning styles, the educational equivalent of a medical doctor. Children will no longer be grouped by age. Each student will advance at his or her own pace in each subject area through individualized tutorials, student-centered group learning and a cornucopia of new technology and software...

Here is the whole article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C07EEDD1638F931A15751C1A9669C8B63

Do you agree with the above or is this another example of ´educational romanticism´?

[karlhenning]

Are you saying that all classroom based teaching should stop ?

Another example of your woolly thinking, Eric, I'm afraid.

And yes, I am saying that all woolly thinking should stop 

[Florestan]

We are heading to an era in which schooling will change profoundly. The teacher will not be the talking head at the front of the classroom, but the expert on students' learning styles, the educational equivalent of a medical doctor. Children will no longer be grouped by age. Each student will advance at his or her own pace in each subject area through individualized tutorials, student-centered group learning and a cornucopia of new technology and software...

Here is the whole article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C07EEDD1638F931A15751C1A9669C8B63

Do you agree with the above or is this another example of ´educational romanticism´?

I strongly disagree. It's "educational romanticism" at its worst. (Actually, I believe the correct term would be "Rousseau-ism" rather than "romanticism".)

I especially take issue with two points.

Our school system was created for an industrial society

Wrong. This educational system has been the norm since times when industrial revolution could not even be conceived of as a dream.

we will recognize so-called disabilities for what they really are -- differences in how people learn. Rather than call them learning disabilities, we will call them learning differences.

The supposed learning disabilities are detected after the pupil spends years in school and in most cases has nothing to do with the pupil, but with the schooling. When during years one teaches nothing essential to a child and after that another one finds that child to have "learning disabilities" it's like a thief crying "Catch the thieves!".

Are you saying that all classroom based teaching should stop ?

God forbid! Not at all!

What I'm saying is that education should not be the monopoly of the state

Now, of course it's one of the missions of a civlized State to educate the children at all level through a network of state-funded, public elementary schools, high-schools, colleges and universities, open --- but not compulsory --- to all children. But the state should also permit, encourage and protect privately-funded schools, high-schools, colleges and universities. .The more diverse the educational systems, the better for the society.

[PSmith08]

Patrick,

We know that Mother Nature is no egalitarian when it comes to mental ability but what are those ´nasty consequences´?

How are the lives of the less intellectually capable now threatened ?

Putting any significance in measurement is the problem, Eric. In that instance, it is all too easy to start drawing lines and making distinctions because, well, people will buy into anything if it's "scientific" or "researched." If you start drawing educational lines based on this nonsense, then you can draw all sorts of other lines. And then we have a problem.

[Florestan]

Putting any significance in measurement is the problem, Eric. In that instance, it is all too easy to start drawing lines and making distinctions because, well, people will buy into anything if it's "scientific" or "researched." If you start drawing educational lines based on this nonsense, then you can draw all sorts of other lines. And then we have a problem.

Indeed, the abuse of science in order to push ideological agendas on society is a big problem.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Putting any significance in measurement is the problem, Eric. If you start drawing educational lines based on this nonsense, then you can draw all sorts of other lines. And then we have a problem.

Patrick,

Point taken. But I still see no great harm if elementary schools provided some kind of systematic assessment of aptitudes. I undoubtedly would have suffered much less in life had I received more ´aggressive academic guidance´ starting at say, age 6.

[Homo Aestheticus]

What I'm saying is that education should not be the monopoly of the state

Now, of course it's one of the missions of a civlized State to educate the children at all level through a network of state-funded, public elementary schools, high-schools, colleges and universities, open --- but not compulsory --- to all children. But the state should also permit, encourage and protect privately-funded schools, high-schools, colleges and universities. .The more diverse the educational systems, the better for the society.

Florestan,

A tangential question:

If a person has both the money and the time for individual/private tutoring, is this a bad thing in your opinion ? 

Isn´t this how some became educated in the ancient world ?

[karlhenning]

Eric, you don't want an apostrophe for its in your signature.

[greg]

Eric, you don't want an apostrophe for its in your signature.

It goes before the i....... 

[Florestan]

If a person has both the money and the time for individual/private tutoring, is this a bad thing in your opinion ? 

On the contrary, it's a very good thing.

[Homo Aestheticus]

On the contrary, it's a very good thing.

Florestan,

Just to be clear, I was referring to a person receiving their complete education solely through private tutoring, not as a complement to the classroom experience.

Is this still a problem ?

[Florestan]

Florestan,

Just be clear, I was referring to a person receiving their complete education solely through private tutoring, not as a complement to the classroom experience.

Is this still a problem ?

No problem at all AFAIC.

[karlhenning]

Just to be clear, I was referring to a person receiving their complete education solely through private tutoring, not as a complement to the classroom experience.

Is this still a problem ?

Not a problem in regard to acquisition of knowledge and skills of the intellect.

The classroom is also a place where one learns social skills broader than the family.

[karlhenning]

It would also have been a problem for me as someone learning to be a musician.  If I had done all my schooling at home, and none in a school, there would have been no opportunity for me to play in a band, to sing in a chorus.

And thus, no foundation for me to decide at age 18 that perhaps what I wanted to become, is a composer.

[Florestan]

If I had done all my schooling at home, and none in a school, there would have been no opportunity for me to play in a band, to sing in a chorus.

Why assume that? Your private music teacher could have very well involved you in bands and choruses.

[karlhenning]

Why assume that? Your private music teacher could have very well involved you in bands and choruses.

That's not an assumption;  I am adjusting my actual experience by the hypothesis.  All of my musical participation (taking a fancy to learning the clarinet, singing in chorus) resulted from chances dependent on (a) interaction with schoolmates, and (b) being in a school hallway at the time when, it happened, a chorus rehearsal was about to start.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for anyone to become a clarinetist or composer in such circumstances.  Only that, in my case, remove the social interaction of the school environment, and participation in music would not have arisen.