'An Appalling Report'

Started by Homo Aestheticus, October 20, 2008, 07:11:33 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 30, 2009, 06:11:15 PM
Do you agree ?

Yes, I do. My only contention is that the academic abiltiy cannot be measured at such an early age as six, when the child hasn't even begin to learn anything academical. I stand by my point: a fair assessment can be made after finishing the secondary school.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

Homo Aestheticus

Andrei,

Quote from: Florestan on May 31, 2009, 11:13:38 PMYes, I do


But the consensus of most respondents to that report was that mixed ability teaching does nobody any good. Well how is that much different from what Charles Murray was advocating in his book  Real Education  and from which I cited passages earlier in this thread ? You seemed to disagree with much of it. 

From The Book Review:

Charles Murray believes our educational system's failures stem from the fundamental lie that every child can be anything he or she wants and that such educational romanticism prevents progress. Four simple truths, he asserts, would prove better:

(1) scholastic ability varies, as all comparative measurements of it attest; (2) half of all children are and must be below average in scholastic aptitude; (3) too many are going to college; (4) America's future depends on the education of the most gifted.

Murray takes care with his first point, discussing various types of abilities instead of the oft-maligned I.Q. measure; however, he does believe that test scores reflect ability. He argues that there are only a limited number of academically gifted people and these are America's future leaders, that only this elite can enjoy college productively and that the nongifted shouldn't be channeled by their high school counselors into training for that college chimera, which wouldn't make them happy anyway. Further, he argues, if the Educational Testing Service created certification tests covering what employers want applicants to know, these would become the gold standard for applicants, rather than college degrees.

Anticipating that these four points will be seen as justifying social elitism, Murray emphasizes rigor in the demands made of the gifted and opines that the preponderance of the gifted aren't now in any elite. Furthermore, he advocates reducing the market importance of the BA degree while raising the value of nonscholastic educational attainment, such as the certifications of skilled trades and performance capabilities. An argument only ideologues and special interests should despise.

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c#minor

We live in an information based society. College degrees are skilled trade degrees. I think Murray is romanticizing college. College is not anything special anymore. College is the norm, the average. To pass and graduate shows an aptitude for working in the real world. Also if you get employed in the area which you got your degree in you have education. It is true that not every child can be anything he or she wants, but college does not assert this, society does. Anyway why is it bad to have an "over educated" society. The errors of the educational system do not lie in the fact that college attendance is up, or that college is the norm, it is the lack of opportunities for those with unconventional learning skills. Maybe we need to rethink the way we educate inside the classroom, not tear down the classroom.

Florestan

Quote from: c#minor on June 10, 2009, 11:49:34 AM
We live in an information based society. College degrees are skilled trade degrees. I think Murray is romanticizing college. College is not anything special anymore. College is the norm, the average. To pass and graduate shows an aptitude for working in the real world. Also if you get employed in the area which you got your degree in you have education. It is true that not every child can be anything he or she wants, but college does not assert this, society does. Anyway why is it bad to have an "over educated" society. The errors of the educational system do not lie in the fact that college attendance is up, or that college is the norm, it is the lack of opportunities for those with unconventional learning skills. Maybe we need to rethink the way we educate inside the classroom, not tear down the classroom.

Yes, agreed.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

karlhenning

Definitely redeemed this thread, c# minor, thank you!

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: c#minor on June 10, 2009, 11:49:34 AMTo pass and graduate college shows an aptitude for working in the real world.

Does it really ?

Why is it then that so many employers today complain about the lack of even basic writing, analytical, and quantitative skills among their workers ?



Florestan

"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

Homo Aestheticus

Andrei,

Quote from: Florestan on June 10, 2009, 11:34:16 PM
Could you please refresh my mind about that post of mine? I can't recall it.

Yes, here it is:

Scroll down just a bit; it's the third post from the top.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9582.280.html

Florestan

"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2009, 03:20:31 AM
Thanks. So what's your question again?

Is Marty Nemko still mostly right ?

Florestan

"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

karlhenning

That article's unique prettiness, half-lit harmonies and restful, unassuming, carefree mood at the end continuously enthrall me.

PSmith08

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 11, 2009, 03:43:46 AM
That article's unique prettiness, half-lit harmonies and restful, unassuming, carefree mood at the end continuously enthrall me.

Can you really believe that that article has half-lit harmonies? What about the three-quarter lit harmonies?

karlhenning

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 11, 2009, 04:25:32 AM
Can you really believe that that article has half-lit harmonies? What about the three-quarter lit harmonies?

Nah, too dim for three-quarter.

Homo Aestheticus

Patrick and Karl,

Mr. Nemko's message is badly needed today, at least here in the United States..... He makes so many good points in that article.

PSmith08

Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on June 11, 2009, 10:49:30 AM
Patrick and Karl,

Mr. Nemko's message is badly needed today, at least here in the United States..... He makes so many good points in that article.

In my experience, unless you have a reason to care about issues like this, there are far more important issues confronting the Republic than too many people going to college.